Tropica - alternatives, Flourish etc

[pineapple]

Originally Posted by bigstick120

Getting back to the original ?, I would assume that the pond flourish is the same, if anything its a little more concentrated so you would just have to add less at a time. An email to Seachem I'm sure will confirm you issue.

Bigstick, thanks for responding to that part. I was thinking of emailing Seachem but then thought "why would they say? It's to their benefit to sell smaller amounts of 500ml at better prices..." Maybe I am paranoid ;-)

Gpodio's chart is a good one, isn't it.

[Bert H]

Sounds like an interesting trace mix, Tom. You got an estimated eta for availability?

[Georgiadawgger]

That table, it shows a lot of numbers, but doesn't explain visual effects of the different products. We can see that TMG has lower values of some of the key nutrients, but for some reason, results are better to the naked eye regarding the product's effect on plant growth, etc.

How did he get the numbers? The labels, or did he run all the stuff through an ICP or AA?

[Troy McClure]

Well Tom, you certainly have my interest piqued for this new trace mix. I'm sure SWOAPE would be willing to buy a bunch when it is available. I never was impressed with CSM+B, for the same reasons people have already mentioned.

How much influence does your EI system have on the new trace mix? Is it possible to mix this trace mix with macros?

[Rex Grigg]

On the Seachem web site there are dosing directions for both Pond Flourish and regular Flourish. Pond Flourish used to be a lot stronger. Let me go check.....

Alright it looks like Pond Flourish is about 3.3X stronger than regular Flourish.

Recommended dosage for the Pond product is 10 ml per 400 gallons and for Flourish it's 10 ml per 120 gallons.

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by Bert H

Sounds like an interesting trace mix, Tom. You got an estimated eta for availability?

It will be, about summer June hopefully.
I'm buried with class, research, and work.

The company is able to do the request and I'll buy it a ton at a time.
Then I'll have them add some other things I want to the mix.

It should be better, at least in terms of a control study, at improving uptake of the metals and producing redder coloration in some plant species.

Some plants that normal never express red color might also show red, that might be a negative issue for some folks. I have to test it out.
It does so through another pathway rather than masking/demasking Chlorophyll like is the case with reducing the Nitrogen levels.

So basically it does no harm to Chlorophyll production like limitation of Nitrogen does, thus the plant is overall much healthier, but still produces nice deep red coloration.

There is nothing like it in this hobby certainly.
But I need to see if the non target plant effects are okay or not.
Might turn things red that you want green.

So I may have 1/4the batch with and 3/4 without the red "secret sauce".
There is a strong molecular basis for it, but unless you are a botanist with a lot of molecular background, you will not figure it out.

Hopefully I can get some idea about it and go from there.
I could sell a red plant color inducer as well on the side and not put it in the trace mix at all.

I could do that right now actually and would not have to wait at all.
But the main thing I want to find cheaper alternatives to are a good trace and ADA aqua soil.

I can do the trace mix without issue, the shear volume of the ADA AS issue requires me to have a lot of it sitting around and...........I would need a large place to put it and sit on it while waiting, the Trace mix is smaller and more valued and makes shipping via Greg Watson much easier.


I talked to Tropica about bring in a pallet of TMG 5liter jugs, it'd cost me about 56$ per bottle to get it here.

So 69.99$ is a darn good deal from Big Als.

But.........I know enough and have the resources to have a custom aquatic plant trace fert that's very specifically made rather than having to buy from an aquarium company.

I could do the same with a substrate, but shipping and making it etc are too much work for too lilttle return. Rocks, wood, substrates must be very cheap to make anything back on them.

Traces are about as polar opposite as you can get there and the only alternatives are really CMS and few others which folks really do not care for.

So there's a demand and one I'd personally like to have.
Save many folks literally 100$ every year and have better freaky plant growth.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by Georgiadawgger

That table, it shows a lot of numbers, but doesn't explain visual effects of the different products. We can see that TMG has lower values of some of the key nutrients, but for some reason, results are better to the naked eye regarding the product's effect on plant growth, etc.

How did he get the numbers? The labels, or did he run all the stuff through an ICP or AA?

Generally an AA.

But...........biolavailable vs concetration in the water are tweo very different things.

My goal is making something that stays around a long time and is easy to pass through the plant's memberanes.

The Fe/Mn/Cu etc cannot be used unless it's inside the plant!!
That's a critical issue.

You can use a ratio of [c]in/[c]out of the nutrient to determine how effective say Gulconate vs DTPH is over a given unit of time at similar concetrations at getting into a plant.

From there, you see how long each presist in the water column and optimalize the Glu/DTPH ratio for the plant growth.

Fairly straight forward apporach.

Similarly, we could do this for many things like Marine systems, any trace or other additive, for fish and adding either toxicants or food etc to their environments and testing it to see what would occur.

Regards,
Tom Barr





Regards,
Tom Barr

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by Troy McClure

Well Tom, you certainly have my interest piqued for this new trace mix. I'm sure SWOAPE would be willing to buy a bunch when it is available. I never was impressed with CSM+B, for the same reasons people have already mentioned.

How much influence does your EI system have on the new trace mix? Is it possible to mix this trace mix with macros?

I do not think that issue will ever go away due to PO4 binding with Fe.
They use Ferric media to remove PO4 for PO4 removers in the hobby.
They also use Fe in lakes to remove the PO4 in the water column.

CMS has not impressed most folks.
The differences between trace mixes tend to be subtle and tougher to gauge and measure.

But they are significant enough to warrant changes and you can certainly see the differences without critical test etc.

The sheen on Crypts is different using TMG, and on other speices vs say Flourish.

Erik and myself talked about that some years back, maybe 8?
The issue is an old one.

My goal is helping folks here.
I could make a killing, but I'm not interested in selling stuff like this, soil, tanks, etc.
KNO3/KH2PO4/GH booster, maybe K2SO4 are all you need for ferts other than a gnarly trace mix that's dry so shipping cost are reduced.

Greg Watson will switch once I deliever it.
Other folks can buy wholesale through him also for this or the GH booster or they can DIY.

The trace mix I have in mind is not something easily DIY, it's very tough to get and find someone to make it.

I think it'll become the defacto trace once I get it made.
The only issue is the red color component. GW might just sell that on the side rather than adding it in.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Fosty]

1 lb of dry powered will be about 50$ and make about 30-40 liters.
So it's actually cheaper by about 8-10X.

Please tell me you plan on selling it in smaller increments than that ...


I really am sure it will be a great product and I look forward to its "arrival".

[plantbrain]

It depends on Greg Watson as far as that goes.
I suspect 1/2lb bags might fetch 30$, 1 lb 50, 2lbs 95$ etc.

I just hate shipping liquids. It's a waste and cost more, waste gas/paper/all sorts of things.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Naja002]

Originally Posted by Rex Grigg

On the Seachem web site there are dosing directions for both Pond Flourish and regular Flourish. Pond Flourish used to be a lot stronger. Let me go check.....

Alright it looks like Pond Flourish is about 3.3X stronger than regular Flourish.

Recommended dosage for the Pond product is 10 ml per 400 gallons and for Flourish it's 10 ml per 120 gallons.

After reading at Seachem that Pond Prime and Aquarium Prime were the same products and that the difference in dosage had nothing to do with "Concentration":

Is there a difference between Aquarium Prime and Pond Prime?

They are the exact same product and concentration. The dosage for a pond is less because a pond has more surface area that can gas off some chlorine. If you use the Pond Prime for an aquarium please use the normal aquarium Prime's dosage directions.

I was curious about the above Flourish comments, so I decided to ask Seachem:

Pond Flourish v. Aquarium Flourish.....?

The Pond version is not more concentrated than the regular Flourish; Pond Flourish is pretty much the same thing as our aquarium Flourish. However, we recommend a lower dosage to use in the instructions since people naturally tend to overdose the Flourish in their ponds due to the greater difficulty in determining the exact water volume of a pond. Also unlike indoor planted aquariums, outdoor ponds are more suspectible to algae blooms due to their direct exposure to sunlight; therefore we advise applying significantly lower dosage of Flourish to avoid adding too many nutrients to a pond for that particular reason.

So, like Prime, the dosage variation of Flourish has nothing to do with the "Concentration".

HTH

[sayn3ver]

good nose work.

All you need now is a fedora and a trench coat, and you'll be set.

[Naja002]

What about the Pencil thin mustache.....?

[pineapple]

Naja002 - nice work there. That means if you're into Flourish, then the large bottle of the pond variety is great value.

[johnnyboy2476]

TOM! What's the status on your trace? I want some of that secret sauce. Please update us on the progress.