Question on the grade of Greg Watson chemicals

[Dr. Quinn]

Greg Watson says he is selling "technical grade" chemicals. It is my understand that "technical grade" is another term for "laboratory grade," which, in the tech tree of chemical purity grades, is actually the lowest grade available. The primary use for this grade is (as I understand it) manufacturing and general laboratory use where no official standards for quality or impurity levels exist. In other words, both impurities and their levels are unknown.

We are not using these chemicals for these purposes, we are using them for aquaculture. It seems to me these chemicals should at the very least be USP (United States Pharmacopeia), NF (National Formulary), FCC (Food Chemicals Codex), EP (Pharmacopeia), or BP (British Pharmacopeia) grade. All of these grades are considered the same in the tech tree of purity grades, and are just above lab or technical grade.

The impurities present in these chemicals can include acid-insoluble matter, alkali compounds, aluminum, ammonium, arsenic, barium, calcium, chloride, copper, fluoride, heavy metals, helium, insoluble matter, iodate, iron, lead, magnesium compounds, manganese, nitrate, nitrite, organic volatile impurities, phosphate, selenium, sodium, sulfate, and sulfur.

For those who don't know, here's the purity grade tech tree:

=============================================
GC Resolv
OPTIMA
HPLC
Pesticide
Spectranalyzed
Biotechnology
Scintanalyzed
Electronic
TraceMetal
Certified ACS Plus
Certified ACS
Certified
USP/NF/FCC/EP/BP
Histology
Laboratory and Technical

ACS = American Chemical Society
HPLC = High Performance Liquid Chromatography
GC = Gas chromatography
=============================================

[scolley]

Wow. And just today I had decided to switch from Seachem ferts due to issues with lack of understanding of what was really in them!

Is this true?

[plantbrain]

Those other elements in trace amounts are easy to export via plant growth/assimilation, phytoremediation with wetland and aquatic plants has a long history.

Trace amounts of all sorts of things exsist in the tanks.
Most salts like KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4 have high purity levels relative to our use/need.

Having used them and ag grade ferts for food supplies, I see no issue here.

It's(ag grade) based on EPA supported testing over many years for human consumptions and plant test, I'm not too worried about the aquatic weeds we grow.

There is export, quite a bit relative to the dosing.
Pruning excess plants, water changes, filter cleanings etc.

If you consider a 50% weekly water change, the max amount the build up that can occur is 2x the nominal amount in the ferts dosed for that week.

If you want to spend a lot more for fert's, be my guest, you can try and show significant differences in the relative growth rates of the plants using
USP vs ag grade. That will be exceedingly tough. I work for an ag dept.

Ag grade KH2PO4/KNO3/K2SO4 are relatively cheap, about 25-50$ for 50 lbs.
Greg likely uses this grade.

Most is made by the same folks but the testing and guaranteed analysis is often what you are paying for to have a known amount of impurities/less of them etc. The higher grades often have another purification step, sometimes two.

If I can eat the plants grown with it without health risk (you can see the EPA's web site for a host of references), my plants will be fine I would think.

Do you have support to the contrary in this specific case with the salts in question?

Regards,
Tom Barr

[scolley]

Tom - I take that to be an endorsement? Sounds like a pretty strong one...

[Pearljam11]

Tom's rebuttal has alot more relevance to our hobby than the original post by Dr. Quinn.

When I read the original post, all I see is someone unnecisarily questioning the grade/quality of greg watsons product, without even mentioning what sort of detrimental effects the lower grade would have on our hobby.

Regardless to THAT debate, I know for a fact that an overwhelming amount of people on this board use these products, and for a few main reasons:

A. cost - It's cheap... we could just be pouring tons of seachem into our tanks instead, but we buy this because its cheap
B. reputation - It's proven, we know it works.. for a fact.

If I buy some KNO3 from gret watson , and dose my tank with it, I know Ill get results, Isnt that all that matters? what amount of purity do you really need? It's not like this stuff is baby food that I'm feeding to my child or something. Too me, If I get good results, and the product is affordable and from a respectable vendor, thats enough.

I'm rambling so I'll wait till someone replies to this

[Rex Grigg]

AG grade KNO3 runs me $21 for 50 lbs. The same grade of K2SO4 runs $14.40.

USP grade KNO3 will run me $55.10 for 500 grams. You do the math on that one.

FCC grade K2SO4 will run $49.50 for 500 grams. You can also do the math on that one.

If you are so damn anal to think that you need that type of purity to grow underwater weeds then you really need to seek help. You are using it to grow weeds. I hope you are not cooking it on a spoon and injecting it into your veins. This whole topic is about as intelligent as the "Medical Grade" CO2 topic.

[Hypancistrus]

My understanding is that the impurities present in "lab grade" chemicals aren't high enough to cause concern for fish, plants, or human consumption. From what Tom Barr said, it sounds like my understanding is correct.

Additionally, my understanding is the higher grade products are only available to specially licensed business. So, Joe Sixpack can't go to an online lab supplier and order these chemicals. Yes there are sites that sell them, but they will ask that a copy of your business license be faxed to them before they will ship. I'm unsure if this has any bearing on the chemicals Greg Watson sells or is "able to" sell.

...all I see is someone unnecisarily questioning the grade/quality of greg watsons product

This makes me think of that post about monkeys. I don't think it's bad to question things.

And Rex, I don't think this forum is the appropriate place for your personal attacks. The forum is a place for newbies and people who aren't sure about things to ask questions. I don't believe there's anything wrong with civil discussions about different grades of chemicals that we use in our hobby. I believe that Dr. Quinn brings up relevant points, and I greatly respect people like Tom Barr who are able to give a civil reply, thus preserving the information on the forum for future people to find and benefit from. Keep in mind most people keep fish as well as plants, and different species of fish have different tolerances to different chemicals. Who would know what "safe" levels of impurities are for a given species of fish? Not me. I'm thankful for public forums such as this one where these topics can be brought up, discussed, and resolved. Your remarks about Dr. Quinn being anal and me being unintelligent are so uncalled for.

[Rex Grigg]

That's not correct. There are several places here in Portland I can walk into and walk out with high grade chemicals. As long as they are not on a restricted list (think meth ingredients) I will have no problem. It's cash on the barrel head and you own it.

[AZFIsh1]

Thanks Dr Quinn for that post! Wow! Now I know not to drink my tank water while I am sitting in front of it in complete and total amazement at how well my plants are growing on the ferts I buy, and will continue to buy from Mr. Watson. I used to sit there with an air line tube running from my mouth to the tank just a sippin and a slurpin........ Ok, ok I am done...

[Dr. Quinn]

My main concern is lab/tech grade products don't have any kind of purity standards, so it can vary from batch to batch. There's no guaranteed analysis. If all I am growing is plants, I could care less. But what about my expensive, rare, and beloved fish!

I keep a 120 gallon planted tank in my clinic, and where most Doctors have a service handle their tank, I have completely put mine together from scratch and handle it myself. I have a medical grade CO2 tank hooked up to it, and I'm looking in to using my own mixed chemicals in it. I found Greg Watson's site on a web search, but the "technical grade" comment made me immediately raise an eyebrow, since I am familiar with the chemical grade tech tree.

It looks like many of you have an extremely loyal following to Greg Watson, so I guess I chose the wrong avenue to pose this question. I was hoping to have a civil discussion on the matter, but I see most of you are just personally attacking me. I certainly didn't intend for this to just be an attack on Greg Watson personally. But he seems to be extremely revered here, and any questioning on what he's selling means I am "anal."

I just did a search on Google, here's the top result, which near exactly matches what I posted:

https://www1.fishersci.com/support/faq/faq_chem.jsp

Now let's go to a laboratory supplier. I'll pick Lab Depot. Again, check the prices. Tech grade is the cheapest available. Look at the impurities listed on the higher grades.

http://www.labdepotinc.com/chemicals...~letter~c.aspx
http://www.labdepotinc.com/chemicals...~letter~m.aspx
http://www.labdepotinc.com/chemicals...~letter~p.aspx

Again, this near exactly matches my post.

Look at Greg Watson's prices. They are extremely cheap. Look at the prices from the lab supplier. Even tech grade chemicals are much more expensive than Greg Watson's prices. This makes me wonder how Greg Watson can afford to even break even at the prices for which he is selling his chemicals. Is it because he is selling the absolute cheapest grade of chemicals available?

Please understand I am NOT saying "Don't buy from Greg Watson" or "Greg Watson is dishonest" or "Greg Watson called my dog names." All I am saying is he's selling "Technical Grade" chemicals, and this is the lowest grade on the chemical purity tech tree with no purity standard, and perhaps he should move up a grade or two where there is a purity standard.

Thanks Hypancistrus (I have 6 of them by the way, which cost around $300 each ) for at least "getting it" when it comes to skepticism and questioning the reasoning behind why you would do something. I haven't seen the post about monkeys, but is it the story where you spray a group of monkeys if one of them tries for a banana, then you replace one at a time until none of the original monkeys are left and none of them ever tries for the banana, even though they have no idea why?

[Hypancistrus]

Thanks, but as I said, your tank isn't one of your patients, I don't think the impurities in GW ferts are going to hurt anything in your tank, even your $300 plecos, which I'm guessing are the zebra ones. (That's quite a lot to pay for them by the way, Liveaquaria.com only charges $250 )

In a way I think most of the impurities are good in the trace levels in which they are present.. most of these are in the trace products made by the commericial companies.

Yes the monkey post was about that exact story.

BTW, I clicked on "add to cart" at the Lab Depot link you posted for FCC calcium chloride. It looks like it will let me complete the order, but it does give me a message that says, "We will only ship chemicals to businesses, not individuals. If you order chemicals through this online system, be aware that we will require business license information before we can ship chemicals to you."

[Dr. Quinn]

Well, I guess I would be able to order them...

My point still stands that Greg Watson should up his grades. While I definitely concur that the impurities would be good at trace levels, my main point is that in tech grade, there is no purity standard. You have no idea which impurities are present, and at what levels.

[m.lemay]

I don't know for sure but I think GWs ferts come from an agricultural supply house. The same ferts that would be used on a farm for growing wheat ,corn, and soybeans etc.... Yes the stuff you and me eat every day. These chemicals are relatively inexpensive at an agricultural supplier when compared to buying them from an online supplier. Farmers buy the stuff by the pickup load.

The levels of nitrates/phosphates in most peoples tap water come from fertilizer runoff. There are EPA standards for tap water and in many cases the EPa standards are higher than most people would want to keep in a fish tank. I think that the amounts of impurities in agricultural ferts are minute, maybe even more minute than you would find in a glass of tap water. Compound this with the fact that ferts are diluted into water at 20ppm. So to get a concentration of 1ppm of contaminants into a fish tank from ferts, the ferts would have to be contaminated with 5% impurities, which is highly unlikely.

My point is that Gregs ferts work for hundreds of hobbyists and though Rex may have been a little outta line with the "anal" comment, I think that this discusion is pretty pointless unles you can come up with some hard #s regarding impurities.

Marcel

[Momotaro]

I argument Dr. Quinn presents. I also understand the rebuttal of Tom.

I would say let experience speak for itself in this matter. I have been using the "low grade' chemicals for quite some time with no ill effects to flora or fauna. Many others will speak of the same experience. That is good enough for me.

The whole mention of the whole "Monkey/Banana" argument makes me extremely skeptical about this thread.

Mike

[Buck]

The way I see it is that If you look at the "percentage" of impurities present in a given amount and match that to the dosing sizes that we do in the tanks it seems almost negligent to even consider.
Add to the fact that with proper tank maintenance and water changes, the amounts become even more so minimal that I think an overdose of the specific chemical you are actually dosing would be more harmful to the fish then the impurities within that chemical.

And Rex... I think we have had this discussion... if ya got nothin nice to say, say it to yourself.