Apistogrammas: ID, sexing & aggression. I think store mislabeled mine. Many pics!

[Complexity]

I bought these two fish from a LFS's display tank. The owner told me they were two Apistogramma agassizi male fish. He said they would be fine to Q/T in my cycled 5g planted tank as they had been in a small planted tank together for awhile already.

Umm.. I don't think so. After doing a lot of searching, I think I have two Apistogramma cacatuoides females (aka "Cockatoo Cichlid")! Or perhaps I have two immature males? Or one of each? I don't know.

Second problem. You can already guess it, I bet. They did fine together for a couple of days, but one is now beginning to push the other one away. They aren't fighting or nipping. One just swims up to the other, making the other move away. I noticed that it's beginning to build up to a bit of chasing with the one being chased hiding out more than before.

So I have three questions, if you can help me.

1. Can anyone positively identify which Apistos I actually have?
2. Can anyone determine the sex of one or both?
3. What would you suggest regarding the aggression? Should I move the lesser aggressive fish to my 75g now? Or should I make another Q/T tank for him/her (I can, if needed, but it won't be cycled)? Add more plants to break up the line of sight? Anything else?

Below are a LOT of pictures to help with the ID process. I've numbered the fish with #1 being the more aggressive (the one chasing) and #2 being the less aggressive (the one being chased). I also included a quick picture of the tank. There is another half-flowerpot in the tank in the back, hidden from the picture. I can add even more, if it's advisable.

Sorry for the poor picture quality. My camera is old. Also, when it looks like there's more fish in the picture than numbered, the "extra" fish are just reflections from the side of the tank. The numbers are close to the head of each fish for IDing.

[macclellan]

1). Yep, Double Red Cockatoos.
2). Both look like immature males to me.
3). Do something, remove a fish, put a tank divider in (needle grid from walmart), another quarantine, etc. etc. 5g is way too small for two males.

[lauraleellbp]

Separating them would be safest.

If you pull over some mulm, established media and plant clippings from some of your other tanks for the new QT tank you may be able to avoid needing to cycle the new one.

[Complexity]

Okay, if they're both males, then I really do have a problem. I had hoped for a pair. I'm thrilled to hear they're double reds! I hadn't expected that.

Given that my PH is 8.0, I'm concerned about moving one to an uncycled tank no matter how well I seed it. If you guys think it would be okay, I'd rather move one into one of my existing tanks. It's a shorter Q/T than I wanted (5 days), but I feel pretty good about these fish as they were their only Apistos left because they were in their display tank.

So if I moved one into an existing tank, which tank would be better?

1. My 20Long. Very established, but overcrowded, especially at the bottom.

5 adult & 5 juvenile guppies (all female)
6 Amano Shrimp
8 Pygmy Loaches
7 Ottos

2. My 75g. Cycled. Mostly silk plants, but getting some real ones in now. I'm adding driftwood which will require that I move the substrate to get the plexiglas bottoms in place to anchor the driftwood. Messy.

8 Adult & 5 Juvenile guppies (all males)
1 Flash Pleco L204
9 Amano Shrimp
5 Cardinal Tetras


I also need to take into consideration as to whether I can keep both of these fish in the 75g once it's designed and planted. Or will I need to always keep them apart? I intend on having dwarf cichlids in the 75, the more peaceful, the better. I'd like to have pairs when possible, but singles are fine also. I have a Blue German Ram in Q/T that I intend to put in the 75g. I also want some Kribensis in there.

I also intend to switch my 20Long tank for a 29g tank that's currently soaking my wood. But that switch may not happen for a long while.

Considering my long term goals, which of the two fish should I move and into which tank should I move him into?

[Reddog80p]

I think they'd be fine in a 75. They will establish theere own territorys plus you can add some females.

[macclellan]

I had 4 males in a 20L no problem.

[dang]

First, you might enjoy looking at the Apisto forums or one of the good books out there on Apistos. Or even joining the Apistogramma study group. Here is a link to the Apisto forum: http://forum.apistogramma.
com/index.php

You may find a link to the ASG on the forum site, not sure.

Now Apistos are not all readily easy to identify by coloration. Experts use other morphological attributes. That said, cacatuoides are unique, and as pointed out, you have two males. All apistos are extremely sexually dimorphic I think. Certainly cacas are. Had you two females, I think only an expert like Mike Weiss would be able to tell you what species... not sure again. But the females look nothing like the males.

I will not weigh in on the tanks, except to say that apistos do not disturb other non-bottom dwelling fish necessarily, which is where they establish their territories (on the bottom), except sometimes during mating. I believe mostly this is true, and there is an established practice of using dither fish in tanks with breeding apistos as an outlet for aggression. Your guppies would fill this role, I imagine. Top dwelling fish like hatchet fish are often recommended for this role. If you intend to breed, besides females, you will have to provide breeding caves.

With all this in mind, your kribs and rams will compete for territory with your apistos, I think. So bare that in mind when you consider tank size.

Two other quick points. Although apistos are generally black water (or brown water depending on species) fish and like a low pH, cacatuoides have been in the hobby so long that they do not need soft, acidic water. Likely the fish you have have not been kept in such conditions for generations. If you had wild caught Apisto sp. sp. or the like from the Rio Negro, it might be a different story. Your pH of 8 may affect the sex ratio of fry as they develop though.

And last, never mix two apisto species in the same tank. Just bad ethics. Sounds like you are about to enter the world of apistos, if you haven't before. If you really want some eye candy, check out one of the Aqualog books on them, or Uwe Romer's book. There are others too. Species are still being discovered and named. Pretty cool.

[stlfishlover]

Originally Posted by macclellan

1). Yep, Double Red Cockatoos.
2). Both look like immature males to me.
3). Do something, remove a fish, put a tank divider in (needle grid from walmart), another quarantine, etc. etc. 5g is way too small for two males.

All 3 of these are spot on. Sounds to me like they are establishing a pecking order, and in your case, you already have a dominant male. They definitely need to be separated. We had 2 males in a 46 gallon at one time, and even that large of a tank did not seem big enough for both of them to have their own territory. Male cacas like to think of the whole tank as their own, at least in my experience. One of the males we had chased the other around so much, never nipping, only chasing aggressively, but it proved to be too much for the other male and he died. If you do decide to keep them both in the 75 gallon eventually, I would get at least 4-5 females in there with them. They are 'harem' fish.. usual ratio for male to females for these fish is 1:2/3, I believe. Having more females in there will also usually keep the male distracted enough that he will be apt to 'chase' the females around instead of the other male.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

[stlfishlover]

Originally Posted by macclellan

I had 4 males in a 20L no problem.

No kidding?! How long were they in there? I have a pair in my 20L... our male think he owns the whole tank, can't ever believe he would be willing to share that space with any more males!

[Complexity]

Thank you! This is very helpful. I think I'll put the lesser aggressive one in my 20L for now, mainly because that tank will remain more stable as I work to decorate the 75g. This will also let me leave the other Apisto in the 5g as long as I need while working on my 75. Who knows, maybe the Apisto in the 20 will work out so I can add a female for him. I had planned on adding Kribs there, but Apistos would be even better.

I was watching them from a distance a little while ago, and it doesn't look like the aggression has become that bad. They will swim together at times, stop at the same spot for awhile, and then swim some more. And then the more aggressive one will charge at the other one, but not a fast, mean charge, but more of a nudging one or a charge done in slow motion. So I think I'm catching this before the lesser aggressive one is being stressed out too much.

I know the Kribs, Rams and Apistos will all fight for bottom territory which is why I got a 75g tank. I'll be happy if I can get a pair of Kribs, a pair of Apistos and just the one Ram with all the other fish being regular community fish. I'd be really happy if I could get a total of 5 pairs, but 2-3 would be good.

I had avoided getting the Rams or Apistos because I didn't think my PH would work, but then I decided to give it a try. My cardinal tetras don't have any problems at all. Since I tend to get the last fish of a group, I'm thinking they've already gone through some acclimation at the LFSs. This guy gave me a 3 day guarantee (not a lot, but the expensive LFS has no guarantee at all) so I figured I'd give it a try. So far, so good, except for the male crowding.

dang (the poster, not the expression ), thank you for the resource links. I'll check them out. These are my first Apistos, as you can now tell. I've always adored the beauty of the fish, but told myself to not "go there". But then last Thursday, I went to one LFS and saw a couple of incredibly beautiful Apistos. A bit over my beginner price at $70 and $90 a pair. So when I saw these others in another LFS, I decided there was only one way to see if I can keep them is to start somewhere. I don't know if I overpaid, but they were $14 each. Not cheap, but not like the other ones!

Okay, I'm off to do a water change in the 20L and then move the Apisto over. That way, I won't have to worry about a water change for at least a week which should give him some time to settle in a bit.

[Complexity]

Originally Posted by stlfishlover

One of the males we had chased the other around so much, never nipping, only chasing aggressively, but it proved to be too much for the other male and he died.

This is why I've been watching them so closely and am catching this in the early stages. Back when I had Kribs, once two would pair off, they'd kill the others overnight.

[Complexity]

They're separated!

At the very last moment, I changed my mind and decided to move the more aggressive one into my 20L tank. That tank is just bustling with activity, and I thought that Apisto would fair better than one that's just been chased. Fortunately, the water temps were almost identical so I didn't have to do a lot of acclimation to move him.

He's swimming around, checking everything and everyone out. And they're checking him out, as well. My loaches are very curious little guys who sneak up from the back to inspect the new fish. They don't bite; they remind me of how dogs sniff the rear ends of other dogs; however, I think the loaches are just being crafty to check things out without having to confront the new fish.

I have a dominate female guppy who's the matriarch of the whole bunch. She's a large guppy, as well, larger than the Apisto. She slowly followed the Apisto around, very gently checking him out.

No aggression yet, but he's only been in there for a few minutes! I'll know more in a few days.

For now, the only issue I see any of the fish having is the Apisto has discovered his reflection. He seems to not know what to make of it!

[macclellan]

Originally Posted by stlfishlover

No kidding?! How long were they in there? I have a pair in my 20L... our male think he owns the whole tank, can't ever believe he would be willing to share that space with any more males!

Yeah, no kidding. There were 4 males, 1 female. There were all in there well past sexual maturity, and I pulled and sold the 3 males when a pair had spawned.

There were a lot of driftwood and oak leaves to hide in and around.