bacterial infection - long story

mistergreen · 04-10-2008, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lauraleellbp

You have a source for that? Most antibiotics aren't able to tell "good" bacteria from "bad"

Some antibiotics can tell 'good' bacteria from 'bad' bacteria.
It's commonly know that Erythromycin (maracyn I) kills gram negative type bacteria. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gram_negative_bacteria
Gram negative bacteria do not include nitrifying bacteria.

Maracy II on the other hand kills a broad spectrum of bacteria.

Plus, most of us have used Erythromycin without ill effects to the cycle.

plaakapong · 04-10-2008, 12:53 AM

I just went back and reviewed that thread and there were Cardinals, several species of loaches, and a pleco lost. The cause was suspected to be the Pimafix, maybe in conjunction with Melafix? Of course you never know for sure as there are many forces at work, differently in each tank.
If you're interested go to loachesonline and search Melafix,Pimafix. Scroll down to the thread topic "medications"

**lauraleellbp** · 04-10-2008, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistergreen

Some antibiotics can tell 'good' bacteria from 'bad' bacteria.
It's commonly know that Erythromycin (maracyn I) kills gram negative type bacteria. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gram_negative_bacteria
Gram negative bacteria do not include nitrifying bacteria.

Maracy II on the other hand kills a broad spectrum of bacteria.

Plus, most of us have used Erythromycin without ill effects to the cycle.

Thanks for that

Still very wary of using antibiotics, though; overuse leads to treatment-resistant strains of bacteria. IMO if a less invasive measure may work, try that first.

Steve Z · 04-10-2008, 01:41 AM

The thing about the 1/2 tsp of salt per gallon are you sure that is safe

and does it really help get rid of Ich and other things

plaakapong · 04-10-2008, 01:57 AM

^^ It's worked well for me. There are many threads about it in this forum.

**lauraleellbp** · 04-10-2008, 02:11 AM

Yes, using non-iodized salt is a time-tested standby, it's been around much longer than commercial fish medications and IMO is even more effective and safer in many instances, ich being a perfect example.

1/2 tsp is a VERY small dose- the most common dose is 1 tbsp per gallon. You can use even more than that if you just do a short "dip"- I tend to think dips are on the stressful side for fish, however. They're most commonly used with large koi, since it's hard to keep a large enough QT tank handy for long-term treatments.

rasetsu · 04-10-2008, 02:34 PM

*sigh* Still losing fish...lost a couple more cardinals, a harlequin rasbora, and one of the new loaches.

I'm going to get some Maracyn to nuke the tank tonight if I see any more dead after work.

From what I've read, Pima and Mela can be used at the same time and is the least harsh on all kinds of fish.

**Karackle** · 04-10-2008, 03:45 PM

I'm sorry to hear about your losses! I've seen a similar flesh-eating type infection, it's not fun, it sounds like you're waging a good battle against it though! I don't have much to add in the way of advice, i have very little experience with antibiotic fish treatments, but I will say that the salt method has been highly effective for me in other instances, and it does seem to help the healing process. good luck!

I just also wanted to say regarding antibiotics....I'm not an expert by any means but I will say from a biological/medicinal standpoint, the gram-negative bacteria are the harder ones to get rid of, which means that antibiotics used to zap them need to be stronger, more penetrable to the outer wall of the bacterium itself, which seems to me would mean it certainly COULD still effect the "good" bacteria. Antibiotics are not specifically targeted per species of bacteria, which is why when people take antibiotics we can get some secondary effects because our "good bacteria" are getting attacked as well. I'm not saying Maracyn WILL kill your nitrifying bacteria, i am simply suggesting you should be careful because it seems to me that it COULD and i'd agree to always be careful with antibiotics and i wouldn't take it as a certainty that ANY type of bacteria-targeted antibiotic is "safe" for certain types of bacteria.

I don't know if that made any sense at all, and I'm sorry....i didn't mean to go on a rant or hijack the thread...the biologist in me got the better of me...just thought i'd throw in my $0.02...well $0.08 on the topic...

plaakapong · 04-10-2008, 05:16 PM

Sorry about your losses! Since the Pima/Mela doesn't seem to be helping you may just try stopping the treatment to see what happens? Can't hurt.

rasetsu · 04-10-2008, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karackle

I don't know if that made any sense at all, and I'm sorry....i didn't mean to go on a rant or hijack the thread...the biologist in me got the better of me...just thought i'd throw in my $0.02...well $0.08 on the topic...

Made perfect sense. Thank you. Just reconfirmed what I've been reading on the web. I'm going to pick up two packs of Maracyn one to have on hand if I see a continuing downward trend tonight. I can always return it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by plaakapong

Sorry about your losses! Since the Pima/Mela doesn't seem to be helping you may just try stopping the treatment to see what happens? Can't hurt.

The Pima/Mela seems to be helping my SAE. He has a pretty nasty patch on his side, but was eating again last night. I'm more concerned about him than the cardinals. Cardinals can die if you look at them funny. If my big fish like my SAEs and rainbows start getting worse, I will use the Maracyn. The cardinals and rasboras I can replace pretty easily. I will get very upset if I start loosing my rainbows, sae's and clown plecos. The last remaining zebra loach was snacking on a pond snail last night so I think it will pull through too.

**BiscuitSlayer** · 04-10-2008, 05:58 PM

FWIW I have used Erythromycin multiple times on my tank (mainly to treat BGA). It has NO EFFECT on the biological filter. No amonia spikes of any kind. I would not hesitate to use it if the need called for it. Just follow the directions and treat for the full duration of the treatment when using it.

It gets rid of BGA without any issues. Never saw it affect shrimp in any way either.

Only fauna that seems to be affected (that I can tell) is malaysian trumpet snails. After 3 seperate EM treatments, my MTS population doesn't exist anymore. Not that I really mind

.

**Karackle** · 04-10-2008, 06:38 PM

Glad it made sense! from what others are saying it doesn't sound like it's detrimental to the biological filter which is great! My guess would be that the ratio of good/N-bacteria is so much higher than the bad bacteria on the fish, the dosage is such that it's enough to kill the smaller number of bad bacteria without killing too many good bacteria as to damage the nitrogen cycle....Of course that's just my a theory

Good luck with your fish though! Glad to hear some of them are starting to eat again

rasetsu · 04-10-2008, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BiscuitSlayer

It gets rid of BGA without any issues. Never saw it affect shrimp in any way either.

Only fauna that seems to be affected (that I can tell) is malaysian trumpet snails. After 3 seperate EM treatments, my MTS population doesn't exist anymore. Not that I really mind

.

That's VERY good the hear. I have no MTS, but tons of pond snails and small trap door snails. Also have some nerites. Will try to relocate as many of those to the qt tank as possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karackle

Glad it made sense! from what others are saying it doesn't sound like it's detrimental to the biological filter which is great! My guess would be that the ratio of good/N-bacteria is so much higher than the bad bacteria on the fish, the dosage is such that it's enough to kill the smaller number of bad bacteria without killing too many good bacteria as to damage the nitrogen cycle....Of course that's just my a theory

Good luck with your fish though! Glad to hear some of them are starting to eat again

Thanks! I will not hestitate to does Maracyn tonight then if there are more deaths.

rasetsu · 04-11-2008, 02:43 PM

FINALLY some good news. Went through the first 24 hours without any fish deaths since last Friday! Did not do the Maracyn bomb after going to two Petsmarts to round up their stock for enough to dose 75 gallons.

Going to continue PWC, Pima/Mela, and salt regiment through Monday.

I will start re-stocking next week......j/k. Going to wait several weeks and then maybe add a couple of rasboras to see if the coast is clear.

**lauraleellbp** · 04-11-2008, 03:04 PM

04-10-2008, 02:11 AM	#21 (permalink)
lauraleellbp Fresh Fish Freak (View User Tanks) PTrader: (28) Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Naples, Florida Posts: 8,124	Yes, using non-iodized salt is a time-tested standby, it's been around much longer than commercial fish medications and IMO is even more effective and safer in many instances, ich being a perfect example. 1/2 tsp is a VERY small dose- the most common dose is 1 tbsp per gallon. You can use even more than that if you just do a short "dip"- I tend to think dips are on the stressful side for fish, however. They're most commonly used with large koi, since it's hard to keep a large enough QT tank handy for long-term treatments. __________________ Laura Lee; 29gal, 46gal,and 90gal FW planted in progress- see my journal at http://forums.tfhmagazine.com/viewto...p?f=82&t=23207

04-10-2008, 05:58 PM	#26 (permalink)
BiscuitSlayer Eatus Morus Biscuitus (View User Tanks) PTrader: (7) Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Acworth, GA Posts: 2,138	FWIW I have used Erythromycin multiple times on my tank (mainly to treat BGA). It has NO EFFECT on the biological filter. No amonia spikes of any kind. I would not hesitate to use it if the need called for it. Just follow the directions and treat for the full duration of the treatment when using it. It gets rid of BGA without any issues. Never saw it affect shrimp in any way either. Only fauna that seems to be affected (that I can tell) is malaysian trumpet snails. After 3 seperate EM treatments, my MTS population doesn't exist anymore. Not that I really mind . __________________ Filstar Pimp #106 29 Gallon Journal - XP2, 130W Coralife Fixture (10,000K and 6700K), Pressurized CO2, DIY Reactor, EI dosing Stand and Canopy Build Journal for a 75/90

04-11-2008, 03:04 PM	#30 (permalink)
lauraleellbp Fresh Fish Freak (View User Tanks) PTrader: (28) Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Naples, Florida Posts: 8,124	__________________ Laura Lee; 29gal, 46gal,and 90gal FW planted in progress- see my journal at http://forums.tfhmagazine.com/viewto...p?f=82&t=23207

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04-10-2008, 12:53 AM	#17 (permalink)
plaakapong Algae Grower (View User Tanks) PTrader: (0) Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Bellingham, Wa. Posts: 116	I just went back and reviewed that thread and there were Cardinals, several species of loaches, and a pleco lost. The cause was suspected to be the Pimafix, maybe in conjunction with Melafix? Of course you never know for sure as there are many forces at work, differently in each tank. If you're interested go to loachesonline and search Melafix,Pimafix. Scroll down to the thread topic "medications"

04-10-2008, 01:41 AM	#19 (permalink)
Steve Z Algae Grower (View User Tanks) PTrader: (0) Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Chariton ,IA Posts: 121	The thing about the 1/2 tsp of salt per gallon are you sure that is safe and does it really help get rid of Ich and other things

04-10-2008, 01:57 AM	#20 (permalink)
plaakapong Algae Grower (View User Tanks) PTrader: (0) Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Bellingham, Wa. Posts: 116	^^ It's worked well for me. There are many threads about it in this forum.

04-10-2008, 02:34 PM	#22 (permalink)
rasetsu Planted Member (View User Tanks) PTrader: (0) Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Frisco, TX Posts: 257	sigh Still losing fish...lost a couple more cardinals, a harlequin rasbora, and one of the new loaches. I'm going to get some Maracyn to nuke the tank tonight if I see any more dead after work. From what I've read, Pima and Mela can be used at the same time and is the least harsh on all kinds of fish.

04-10-2008, 03:45 PM	#23 (permalink)
Karackle Tankaholic (View User Tanks) PTrader: (6) Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Albany, NY Posts: 858	I'm sorry to hear about your losses! I've seen a similar flesh-eating type infection, it's not fun, it sounds like you're waging a good battle against it though! I don't have much to add in the way of advice, i have very little experience with antibiotic fish treatments, but I will say that the salt method has been highly effective for me in other instances, and it does seem to help the healing process. good luck! I just also wanted to say regarding antibiotics....I'm not an expert by any means but I will say from a biological/medicinal standpoint, the gram-negative bacteria are the harder ones to get rid of, which means that antibiotics used to zap them need to be stronger, more penetrable to the outer wall of the bacterium itself, which seems to me would mean it certainly COULD still effect the "good" bacteria. Antibiotics are not specifically targeted per species of bacteria, which is why when people take antibiotics we can get some secondary effects because our "good bacteria" are getting attacked as well. I'm not saying Maracyn WILL kill your nitrifying bacteria, i am simply suggesting you should be careful because it seems to me that it COULD and i'd agree to always be careful with antibiotics and i wouldn't take it as a certainty that ANY type of bacteria-targeted antibiotic is "safe" for certain types of bacteria. I don't know if that made any sense at all, and I'm sorry....i didn't mean to go on a rant or hijack the thread...the biologist in me got the better of me...just thought i'd throw in my $0.02...well $0.08 on the topic...

04-10-2008, 05:16 PM	#24 (permalink)
plaakapong Algae Grower (View User Tanks) PTrader: (0) Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Bellingham, Wa. Posts: 116	Sorry about your losses! Since the Pima/Mela doesn't seem to be helping you may just try stopping the treatment to see what happens? Can't hurt.

04-10-2008, 06:38 PM	#27 (permalink)
Karackle Tankaholic (View User Tanks) PTrader: (6) Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Albany, NY Posts: 858	Glad it made sense! from what others are saying it doesn't sound like it's detrimental to the biological filter which is great! My guess would be that the ratio of good/N-bacteria is so much higher than the bad bacteria on the fish, the dosage is such that it's enough to kill the smaller number of bad bacteria without killing too many good bacteria as to damage the nitrogen cycle....Of course that's just my a theory Good luck with your fish though! Glad to hear some of them are starting to eat again

04-11-2008, 02:43 PM	#29 (permalink)
rasetsu Planted Member (View User Tanks) PTrader: (0) Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Frisco, TX Posts: 257	FINALLY some good news. Went through the first 24 hours without any fish deaths since last Friday! Did not do the Maracyn bomb after going to two Petsmarts to round up their stock for enough to dose 75 gallons. Going to continue PWC, Pima/Mela, and salt regiment through Monday. I will start re-stocking next week......j/k. Going to wait several weeks and then maybe add a couple of rasboras to see if the coast is clear.

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