All About Discus

[plantbrain]

Well, you are balancing two main goals, discus and plants.

Tempos of 82-84F are fine, GH's, really never seemed to have any longer term effect, I kept them at 9 for years, KH was 5, they bred often.

I feed them live worms and brine, then regular frozen foods.
A wide variety.

I got 4-5" fish and they quickly because 6-7" fish.
Could I have gotten them larger and gotten more fry without plants?

Sure, but a bare bottom tank looks like steer manure
Like looking at majestic lion inside a cage vs seeing him in Kenya under a tree.

My goal was never to make the fish as large as I possible could, nor try to max brood, most breeders and advice columns think this is the main goal.
For many, it is.

But do not assume it is for you.

You need to figure out what your goal is and what trade offs are worthwhile for you.

If you are a true discus zealot, then do not keep planted tanks, go bare bottom.

Discus I might add are NOT hard to keep as much as the Bull suggest on the web.

If you do weekly 50% or better yet, 2x a week, 50% water changes, you will have little issues, feeding them 1-2x a day etc.

They are big old cichlids after all.
Also, they are heavily bred and are domesticated now.

I suggest getting local bred ones, I never lost a discus ever and they all where local. I had high CO2, I also had high NO3's via EI for several years, with n ill effects.

Adding NO3 via KNO3 is radically different than adding NO3 via fish waste and fish food which starts out as NH4 and then NO3 and then NO3 as the end product.

Many assume that all NO3 is the same, from fish waste, it's not.

So such assumptions and not considering that planted tanks have other sources of N, remove the NH4 waste these fish generate directly, add O2, CO2 which lowers the pH and drives faster growth of plants are problems.

Zealotory in the discus groups adds to even more problems.
They look like gaudy dinner plates. The wild ones look nicer IMO.
Then you get folks that mix the colors, then it really looks gaudy.
But that is their goal, and might not be yours.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[fishscale]

I agree. One day, when I get my 700 gallon tank, I will be keeping wild semi royal blues

[LS6 Tommy]

Where did my reply go? Did it get removed? I didn't think I said anything insulting or nasty. At least it wasn't intended to be. Apologies to anyone who thought I was trying to insult them.

Oh well, everybody pretty much repeated my thoughts, but I'll add my $.02 anyway.

I don't think you need RO. 50% WC is overzealous unless attempting to breed in quantity in bare tanks. High TDS shouldn't be an issue with proper tank maintenance. They aren't labor intensive. I do nothing more than I would do if I didn't have them. 1 fish for every 10-15 gallons is a little generous. I had (4) 6" breeding pairs in a 29, but I whole heartedly agree that a 55 gallon minimum is not a bad idea. You definitely do not need to buy adults to have them in a planted tank, but I do agree growing them out can leave food behind if you overfeed or don't have a good "clean up crew". Discus, especially wild caught, are mid-water feeders, so it's easy to overfeed- in an effort to get enough food to them a lot goes to the bottom. I'm lucky, my current ones have learned to eat off the Blyxa & moss. From that point of view I agree that a bare tank may be easier. Stunted or malformed fish are caused by inbreeding, poor nutrition or possibly disease, but not from having plants in the tank. Discus come from very overgrown waters. How come every wild discus in the world isn't malformed and stunted??
That's like saying having a certain type of houseplant will make you have thin hair & need thick glasses.

I recommend going to a well referred local breeder, too, especially if you're new to Discus. It's my belief that tank raised Discus are quite a bit easier on the newbie. They seem to tend to acclimate faster to new surroundings, be more at ease, accept more types of food more readily and most likely the water conditions are more likely to be closer to yours.

Tommy

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by LS6 Tommy

From that point of view I agree that a bare tank may be easier. Stunted or malformed fish are caused by inbreeding, poor nutrition or possibly disease, but not from having plants in the tank. Discus come from very overgrown waters. How come every wild discus in the world isn't malformed and stunted??
That's like saying having a certain type of houseplant will make you have thin hair & need thick glasses.
Tommy

I never stated a thing about "malformed", nor did anyone else here.
Where'd that come from?

Perhaps the notion of "stunted" seems not to sit right with you.
"Reduced" size sound any better?
Same thing. Bottom line is that one can get larger fish in a BB tank and they are able to feed better. Most every breeder knows this.

It's easier as you yourself even said:

I'm lucky, my current ones have learned to eat off the Blyxa & moss. From that point of view I agree that a bare tank may be easier.

"Stunted" reduced compared to the larger ones, not malformed or worse as far as pets goes. They live and get pretty good size and live long healthy lives. Many wild discus are stunted, malformed as well, they are the ones that die, get eaten and evolution takes care of. "Culls" we call them in the breeding world.

If you want max fish growth, size, show them off as much as possible,max brood, etc go BB tanks. This applies to most breeding fish. If you like a more scaped tank, have more reasonable stocking levels, do not want to feed them 10X a day and get the most fry, then a planted tank is wise.

An overloaded over stocked planted tank is not going to be that easy.

So a simple balance is achieved with say a 90 gal planted tank, 82-84F, weekly or 2x a week 50% water changes, 5-7 adult fish, some cleaner fish etc, good plants etc, moderate to low KH/GH.

More water changes has never been detrimental to any fish or planted tanks I've ever seen(has it been IMO/IME?) and it's the easiest simplest thing we can do that works to keep the critters and plants healthy.

Adding a bit more WC's to a Discus routine where you have a higher fish load seems like a wise piece advice.

I did 50-60% weekly and never had an issue.

They are large well fed cichlids, as such, folks should change water often when they have high fish loads and feed a lot, that's just common sense, it's not that they are any more wimpy than most other fish from the same area, region. It's not that they are particularly hard or tough to keep.

Same type of thing with plants.
I think we both agree and would in person about all of this anyhow

Regards,
Tom Barr

[stagius]

Tom , you mentioned the difference between NO3 fed directly through KNO3 and NO3 through fish waste.

What is the difference ? Which will benefit plant more ?

[fishboy87]

Yeah I was reading things on simplydiscus.com, and when I heard about 50% water changes every day, after seeing that I was considering to just have angels but I like all of your opinions better(because I am not changing 60something gallons every day to keep a fish alive). I would hope 20% two times a week or 50% once a week is OK. Thats enough for me to get that accomplished feeling once I clean the tank. I'm not going for anything like breeding though I wouldn't mind one day if I found a couple of eggs. I have a 29 gallon aquarium also that I'm going to plan on using as a planted quarantine tank (you can tell I like plants). I don't know if this will have a negative effect at all but I thought it might be nicer than a bare bottom tank. Any suggestions or anything about my plan, please tell me because I don't want to even slightly screw this up.

[fishscale]

Are you getting juveniles or adults? The larger the tank and the fewer the fish, the less water you need to change. The bottom line is don't overstock your tank, and you should be ok.

[ummyeah]

Discus come from very overgrown waters. How come every wild discus in the world isn't malformed and stunted??

That's not true. Discus do not have vegetation in their natural habitat. It is just sand, decaying leaves, and driftwood. There are absolutely no plants.

Here is an underwater picture: http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/4...ope03951ym.jpg

I don't see the point in discus. To get them in the best shape they are a lot of work. Their wild colors are pretty plain and boring. The man-made colors still can't compete with saltwater reef fish and they are not real. African cichlids are more colorful, they have more variety, they are much less work, and they are real.

Check out this comparison:

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/article...us_gallery.php

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/article...us_gallery.php

[lauraleellbp]

LOL "real" is an interesting choice of words. Everyone has their own tastes.

I personally happen to enjoy both natural discus coloration as well as the morphs developed by breeding. Since I live in South FL I have no desire to keep a SW tank- I just go snorkeling if I want to see tropical SW fish! I am looking foward to keeping discus, hopefully in the near future...

[TheXman]

Originally Posted by ummyeah

That's not true. Discus do not have vegetation in their natural habitat. It is just sand, decaying leaves, and driftwood. There are absolutely no plants.

Here is an underwater picture: http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/4...ope03951ym.jpg

One picture doesn't prove a lack of plants in all habitats. But even if it could, I don't see any discus in that picture! I do see Cardinal tetras and I don't think those two species are from the same river systems. Anyway, to say that there are absolutely no plants in the wild habitat of discus is of course wrong. I've seen a few biotope tanks done by Heiko Bleher with discus and there is always at least some floating vegetation in there. I think the point being made by Tom and others is that plants and substrate create places for food and waste to hide, making it harder to be sure that you get all of the extra food and waste cleaned out of the tank. This causes water quality to drop faster, so you either have to: a) cut back on feeding to reduce excess food and waste, b) do constant, massive water changes, or c) keep a much lower fish load. Bare bottom tanks just allow food and waste to easily be seen and removed, allowing quicker, easier cleanup and allowing for higher feed rates and fish loads. It has nothing to do with plants actually being incompatible with discus. Some java ferns or other similar plants tied to some driftwood might be a way to get the best of both worlds as these don't require substrate.

[digthemlows]

Originally Posted by fishboy87

Yeah I was reading things on simplydiscus.com, and when I heard about 50% water changes every day, after seeing that I was considering to just have angels but I like all of your opinions better(because I am not changing 60something gallons every day to keep a fish alive). I would hope 20% two times a week or 50% once a week is OK. Thats enough for me to get that accomplished feeling once I clean the tank. I'm not going for anything like breeding though I wouldn't mind one day if I found a couple of eggs. I have a 29 gallon aquarium also that I'm going to plan on using as a planted quarantine tank (you can tell I like plants). I don't know if this will have a negative effect at all but I thought it might be nicer than a bare bottom tank. Any suggestions or anything about my plan, please tell me because I don't want to even slightly screw this up.

I kept discus 15 years ago in a 55 planted/community tank and ended up with pairs breeding and never had problems with anything. I did 30% - 50% water changes 1 time a week. I never used RO either. Discus will show you if they don't like thier water, they are easy that way.

I have discus again (I took a break as the breeding stuff is hard work) in a 125 gallon. Some are adults, some are smaller.........I feed 3-4 times a day and do 30% water change during the week and a 50% on the weekend.......all my discus are eating and healthy.

There is a lot of information out there on Discus and lot's of good advice. I think the best advice I've seen is in Tom Barr's post. If you want a "show" fish the size of someones head, then do 50% water changes 1-2 times a day in a barebottom tank. It's a very reliable way to ensure health and growth. If you want to watch your fish in a tank full of plants and try and re-create what you see as a "natural" surroundings tank then go for it!

The cleaner the water, the better, and the best way to have clean water is with water changes!

Seems to me the majority of Wild Discus are 5"-6" which some consider "small" if you are raising bare bottom tank guys. So "stunted" may be a realitive term.

I really encourage you to try discus, they are beautiful, have wonderful personalities, and really will tell you if somethings wrong (ie; color, hiding, etc) so it's easier than other fish that will just end up dead.

[lauraleellbp]

Dig- Jack Wattley discourages mixing adult and juvie discus, says the adults secrete hormones that inhibit the growth of the juvies. How long have you had your discus of diff sizes mixed, and do you think that the juvies are growing at a slower rate than you would have expected?

[digthemlows]

had the juvies for about 3-4 months and I've read that about the adults and I don't really know that I see a change. My juvies eat 4Xs a day and eat until thier bellies look like they will pop. They are growing, but I can't even say I know even half as much as Jack Watley. I don't understand why in nature adult fish being around would inhibit the growth of young?? I'll let you know in 6 months where everything is.

[lauraleellbp]

From what I've read, in nature most of the time there's water flow, so there's not a closed system. In cases where there is a closed system (IE during the dry season if several discus get stuck in a pool) it helps the bigger discus survive as food resources are more limited, and bigger discus need more overall food mass.

Just what I've read, mostly in his TFH column, and I will definitely be interested in your experience.

[digthemlows]

Originally Posted by lauraleellbp

From what I've read, in nature most of the time there's water flow, so there's not a closed system. In cases where there is a closed system (IE during the dry season if several discus get stuck in a pool) it helps the bigger discus survive as food resources are more limited, and bigger discus need more overall food mass.

Just what I've read, mostly in his TFH column, and I will definitely be interested in your experience.

that makes sense. I did some searches over at simplydiscus and couldn't find anything for sure on it. I have a 29 gallon that I set up as a BB tank for a month and just couldn't bear to watch the discus in it. It was boring and I wanted them in my planted tank. If I have problems I'll transfer them, and maybe in a year I'll try a "grow out" tank and see if the fish get bigger or stay healthier than this time around......