Switching Micros: ADA Green Brighty Step 2 to Tropica Master Grow (TMG)

[scolley]

I've got a tank that I've been using Green Brighty Step 2 for my micros. As I understand it, Step 2 is mostly just Step 1 plus Iron. And Green Brighty Step 1 is the ADA formulation for micros.

I've been happy with the results, both in this tank and the one prior where I used Green Brighty Step 2 for my micros. But the tank I'm using it in now is a 180g, and I cycle the water through it pretty fast for my discus - 50% w/c every 3 days. So I'm chewing through a lot of Green Brighty Step 2.

I just finished my 2nd 500ml bottle on this tank, and have decided that my pockets aren't deep enough to keep this up (1 500ml bottle a month), so I'm switching to Tropica Master Grow, or TMG. I gather that this product (that I've used with good results in the past) is now called "Plant Nutrition". That's fine. But I happened to have 500ml of the old TMG sitting around. So...

I'm switching from ADA Green Brighty Step 2 to Tropica Master Grow for micros. I've found a good dosing regimen that I'm happy with for the ADA product. They recommend X daily, and I dose X+/-Y daily. Or you could say that I dose Z% or ADA's recommended dose. The quantities don't matter. The point is that I've found a dosing level that works for my tank, and I can quantify it with respect to ADA's recommended dosage.

But now that I'm switching, I need to know how much TMG to dose.

Tropica publishes the contents of their product, but ADA does not. If they did, I could use that as an indicator to calculate how much TMG to dose, based on the ADA doses I'm providing now. But since ADA doesn't tell you what's in their product, I don't really know what I'm dosing now - just how many ml I'm dosing. Or more importantly - what percentage of the recommended dosage I'm dosing now.

So with so little information to go on, I'm switching to TMG, using the same percentage of Tropica's recommended dose as the percentage I was using of ADA's recommended dose.

Anyone here have a better idea? Or even better, experience with switching from Green Brighty Step 2 to TMG?

Thanks in advance.

[Left C]

Hi Scolley

According to the following dosing regimen, Tom Barr recommends 2.5 mL daily of TMG or Tropica Plant Nutrition liquid per 20 gallons; but you can adjust it to your needs.

I'm using this method: http://www.barrreport.com/estimative...ei-dosing.html

From my limited experience, some of my aquariums require that I use the recommended dosing levels for the micros as well as the macros daily. Some of the other aquariums work fine with alternating macro/micro dosing just like EI or basically using 50% of the recommended dosing.

I hope this helps you some, Scolley.

Left C

[scolley]

Left C - THANKS for the help! Really. But that wasn't really what I'm looking for.

Maybe I didn't explain it well...

I'm not looking for a recommended dosage. Not any more than I want to argue whether Nitrates should be 8, 14, or 18 ppm. I've found a level that works well for my current set of plants, in my current aquascape. Same applies for micros.

You provided Tom's recommended dose of Tropica micros - to be adjusted as required. But there's the rub. I'm looking for the necessary adjustment, with regard to manufacturers recommendations.

So... Tropica recommends 1ml TMG per 10 liters water weekly. Based on what you've said, Tom recommends approx .925ml per 10 liters water weekly, if I'm doing the math right. The difference is too small to quibble about.

My problem is, ADA's recommended level of Green Brighty Step 2 was too much. I had it cut back to a level that the plants were healthy, and there was no apparent excess. So now I want to cut back the TMG the same way. But the only thing I have to go on is recommended dosages.

For example, if ADA recommends X, and I was using 0.5X, since Tropica recommends Y, I'm switching to 0.5Y.

Problem is, that assumes the two products have roughly the same mix of micros. Could be that using the same percentage of the recommended dosage could cause an excess, or deficiency, of something.

That's why I'm looking for guidance.

[Jens]

Scolley, how about you test for your level of Iron and dial in the TMG dose based on that?

[scolley]

Jens - that's a great idea IMO. Good thinking! That's why I posted, to get that sort of feedback. Thank you.

But that seems to have two problems:

1) It assumes that the levels of iron between GB Step2 and TMG have consistent ratio's between their iron levels and that of the other ferts. Which, when you are - as I am - completely in the dark, is a reasonable place to start - is probably optimistic to assume is true. But if no one steps up with experience, it's a whole lot better than having no idea at all!

2) In my experience, iron tests are just about the most unreliable tests available to the hobbyist. So I'm not sure that comparisons between the two (as indicated by crap Fe test kits) would be a reliable way to calculate differences.

But THANKS for the post. IMO that was an innovative way to approach the problem!

[plantbrain]

Scolley, this is from a personal talk I had with Claus back many years ago about TMG:

"The suggested amounts on the bottle are for non CO2 planted tanks , they are conservative. If you have high plant density, CO2, higher light(Europeans tend to have less light than many here) , then adding 2-4x the suggested amounts is required. Most of the tanks I've seen here in the USA are very trace limited."

I was the only one in the club adding far more than the suggested amounts, I added till I no longer had a positive result.

And it also proved.........as the prevailing myth at the time about excess Fe = BBA among other algae, was patently false as a cause.

That was 10 years ago now........

So you can take that suggestion and Greg Morin from SeaChem also has a similar take on this, another person I've known for a long time, as you will.

ADA's line is different, they do not really tell you much. But I just tested all these liquid ferts critically.............

Regards,
Tom Barr

[scolley]

Thanks Tom. I guess that's a good reason to bump it up. I'll start slowly, and keep bumping every couple weeks until I see no additional benefit.

Thanks!

[plantbrain]

As many tanks are different, they also change through time.
So adding more might be required later or after a rescape etc.

So say 3mls per 100 liters daily may require 5mls per day later.
Do not assume that one amount/rate is enough all the time from then on.......

Many do........

I tend to add a bit extra just in case.........it makes figuring out complex variables far far far easier...:idea:

But these are traces.........so the demands are very hard to follow as the plants just need a tiny amount and a little storage in the vacuole can go a long long way before we see any negative IMPACTS. effects can be subtle and hard to be sure what you are seeing is really Traces, or perhaps a little variable in the CO2?

They are also very tough to measure with test methods and determine what is limiting vs non limiting as far as plant growth. Most use dry weight left overs for tissue analysis. But that just compares micro grams of Fe between two plants, and that needs correlated with relative growth rates between then samples to suggest that the plant is limited.

Lot of work.

Maintaining good non limiting nutrients other than traces is required and you need at least 3 weeks time and be sure that no other limitations are present.
That's not as hard, but still takes work.

But the tank looks nice as a result too

Regards,
Tom Barr

[scolley]

Originally Posted by plantbrain

...the plants just need a tiny amount and a little storage in the vacuole can go a long long way before we see any negative IMPACTS. effects can be subtle and hard to be sure what you are seeing is really Traces, or perhaps a little variable in the CO2?

Well along that line of reasoning - that I am comfortable with - it could take a LONG time in my tank to see the difference. That's because of a couple of factors:

1) I autodose ferts daily. And I do micro water changes each day. No big weekly reset. So there are no big swings in conditions. As a consiquence those vacuole's function - whether to store or release - is not triggered by big swings. Any swing will be subtle over a long period of time.

2) I'm reasonably moderate to low light. So moderate to low metabolism. And moderate to low time before changes in environment manifest themselves in plant conditions.


But I take your point. Use a bit of excess. And give it time.

Will do. Thanks!

[kekon]

When I used TMG i had to add 250% of the recommended dose and additional iron and manganse. If the TMG had been cheaper i would have added more without extra Fe and Mn. Some people dose as much as 400% of the recommended dose.

[bradac56]

Just out of curiosity have you seen the price bumb on the TPN product? Big Al's is selling it for $130 for 5l or $13 for 250ml comparied to $20 for 500ml of Green Brighty.

It's not actully cheaper anymore.

- Brad