_Dosing Regime's_

[wmartino]

Hello all new here.

Just a quick question. I just started EI dosing. Should one still use root tabs or does it matter. I would perfer not to use them but can.

Bill

[armyoffoo]

Originally Posted by wmartino

Hello all new here.

Just a quick question. I just started EI dosing. Should one still use root tabs or does it matter. I would perfer not to use them but can.

Bill

Yes, you should still use root tabs for plants such as crypts and swords which are heavy root feeders and won't take advantage of ferts in the water column as well as ferts taken in through their root systems.

[gmccreedy]

Originally Posted by armyoffoo

Yes, you should still use root tabs for plants such as crypts and swords which are heavy root feeders and won't take advantage of ferts in the water column as well as ferts taken in through their root systems.

Thats a bit overstated. If you have a nutrient rich substrate already, why use root tabs? Root tabs in aquasoil, for instance, would be a complete waste.

[wmartino]

I am currently using Eco. Should I still use tabs?

Bill

[plantbrain]

I would.
Rich sediments, unlike sand, EC, Flourite, provide a back up of nutrients.

So if you slack off on dosing the water column, your plants still have a source of nutrients to draw from, as long as you have some nutrients somewhere all the time, you will do fine.

The rate of uptake and growth are obviously very critical to any routine dosing. Uptake is not = to growth all the time. Light drives growth ands thus CO2 and nutrient uptake, if there is high light, you will have higher CO2 demand, thus higher nutrient uptake and you'd expect to see higher rates of growth.

So a method that works well for a non CO2 slow rate of growth with low light might not be very good for a high light CO2 enriched tank.

Fish waste alone is likely plenty for a non CO2 tank in many cases.
So the real issue is matching the rates required for the rates of growth without too much limitation.

I've not found excess ranges(at least for plants) that are detrimental or induce algae when at stable higher levels within reasonable errors.
Few will dose over 10ppm of PO4 for example.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[gmccreedy]

Originally Posted by plantbrain

I would.

Tom,
So your saying that even with EI dosing, which is dosing in excess already, should be supplemented with root tabs even in an enriched substrate?

I think the key to what your saying is, if you don't dose consistently, which IMO is the basis behind EI dosing (to keep the WC full of nutrients), then root tabs are your answer?

Not sure if I can agree with that line of reasoning. I would use root tabs only if I have a new planting to ensure the new root growth has an ample supply of nutrients from the start, or if I am starting fresh with inert substrate.

Maybe you can elaborate a bit more on what your thinking is...

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by gmccreedy

Tom,
So your saying that even with EI dosing, which is dosing in excess already, should be supplemented with root tabs even in an enriched substrate?

Yep, but it' not really needed if you have lower light, lower plant biomass etc and certain species. I think "excess" is lousy word though used to describe non limiting growth.

Some suggest they do not desire non limiting growth, well that's fine, but
using nutrients when we have other more obvious drivers of growth is far wiser.

Some folks just do not get this rather obvious approach.
I suppose a lack of knowledge about how and why a plant(or algae) grows is at the root of things, as well as very poor assumptions about CO2 and its measure and light.

Why all the fixation on nutrients is really sort strange to me.
It's only the last 3rd of the things that drive aquatic plant growth.
Light and CO2 are far more important, light is the easiest of all the para,meters we have to control and less light -= less CO2 deamnd, makiing that easier, and obviously, far more options for a source/s of non limiting nutrients as well as a wider range.

Basically this "D" range is extended:


Limiting say NO3 or PO4 will not extend all the other ranges, limiting light will since it is first in the series.

While plants might be limited for NO3, the algae clearly are non limited.
So light is is about the best simplest method to control algae and plant growth.

It's also, as many EI critics like to spout, wasteful to use more light than is needed and cost far more. Apparently that fact is convieniently overlooked when criticizing. Ignore your own advice and ignore basic plant science, okay, sure guys............

The key here with a rich sediment is that it acts synergistically with the water column, this relieves nutrient stress in the sediment, as well as the water column allowing more flexibility in your dosing.

Also, if you want to run things very lean in the water column for whatever reason, you can do so much better and also reduce light so the plants do not suffer. This is basic common sense rather than a pre determined agenda based conclusion. Folks seem to really get lost and then devolve into personal bickering rather than sticking to a basic goal and idea to get there.
What are the real risk when it comes to the reasons why you do a method?
Do I need to really be so careful, test all the time and if so, what parameters and how much?

I can place fear and loathing on CO2 and rightly so, far more than any single nutrients, after all, more folks get algae and kill their fish with CO2 than anything else.

Where are the critics there?
Or with light?

ADA adds "excess nutrients" to the sediments. You just cannot test them with the cheapo test kits and methods suggested on line in the hobby.

I think the key to what your saying is, if you don't dose consistently, which IMO is the basis behind EI dosing (to keep the WC full of nutrients), then root tabs are your answer?

I am saying that we are human...........and will error and forget, at some time, some point. This allows us to get more from both locations/sources of nutrients and ultimately have a nicer more stable tank over time (at least where the nutrients are concerned, CO2/light are another story).
Also, I do not like to assume that all plants want water column ferts, I think both locations is wiser. Then the plants can chose and also do not have transport nutrients internally(less energy and time for nutrient transport).
This is the best of both worlds, too many get caught in this either or business or claim a plant prefers a certain location for nutrients.

Plants are opportunistic, they will take where they can get them.
Terrestrial plants are very similar also, most of the horticultural ornamental plants are fertigated, with virtually inert nutrients in the pots.
I'm talking about 20billion $ a year or more, 5 Billion or so in CA, USA alone.
I've been there, know the folks seen 5000 gallon KNO3 nutrient solution barrels.

They have other issues for root ferts, and cannot control temps like we can and other variables.Still, it's one reason why the plants you often get from nurseries are so nice.

Not sure if I can agree with that line of reasoning. I would use root tabs only if I have a new planting to ensure the new root growth has an ample supply of nutrients from the start, or if I am starting fresh with inert substrate.

Maybe you can elaborate a bit more on what your thinking is...

I think if you look at human errors, plant growth, transport, getting more out each and redundancy in your approach to adding ferts, adding them in both location is very wise. However, it's not required because plants are opportunistic.

You can do very well with EI alone.
But I think most folks will agree adding ADA AS with water column ferts will yield better rates of growth and easier time with most species as well as more flex on the range of nutrients and routines folks might consider using.
Then there's the texture issue and root penetration for reduced source of ferts.

You really have nothing to lose by using both vs just the water column.
Old school thinking, say 10-30 years age added soil to the sediment, then nothing to the water column, sort of the reverse of EI.
ADA does this sort of...........but then still adds ferts to the water column daily and then does the large weekly water change.

So it's still somewhat old school, but they still leave the ire of fear with the water column. I one of the few folks that bothered to test toxicity and algae inducement, not merely plant growth.

So that way we can see and measure what ranges are good for plants, fish etc without death, without algae etc.

That's pretty useful near as I can tell, fear?
Not one bit.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[jesso]

Could I use the day/week medicine containers and measure out each dry fert and put them in the appropriate day?

Reason I ask is because some dry ferts would be mixed together. Is this OK?

I have a scale so I could measure out what I needed day to day for a week.

KN03, KH2P04, K2S04 would be in one compartment.

[Wö£fëñxXx]

Originally Posted by jesso

Could I use the day/week medicine containers and measure out each dry fert and put them in the appropriate day?

Reason I ask is because some dry ferts would be mixed together. Is this OK?

I have a scale so I could measure out what I needed day to day for a week.

KN03, KH2P04, K2S04 would be in one compartment.

Absolutely, whichever way is easiest for you.

[Church]

Forgive me if it's already been mentioned, because I couldn't find it, but would the EI method have to be adjusted in any way if just beginning a new tank setup? Does it have to be ramped up or anything like that? Or do I just begin my normal dosing on the day I plant my plants?

Also, all I'm planting is a carpet of glosso, in an iwagumi setup. Do I need to lower the fert amounts at all due to the fact that it wouldn't be what I would call "heavily planted?"

Thanks.

[Wö£fëñxXx]

Ramped up? nah NPK-TE-Carbon.
I've always dosed from day one, no adjustments needed
unless you just want to play around with your ingredients
that is strictly your call.
The goal for me is to grow plants and that is what I do
and I do it by dosing/feeding the plants.

Being that this is a new tank I hope that you are adding
some beneficial bacteria to aide the establishment of the
eco-system.
For a greater advantage add Excel to your dosing regime.

[Church]

Ok. Thanks. Yeah, I'm using the canister filter that was on my heavily planted, long-established 10 gallon. So I haven't even seen a mini cycle. Seems that the canister was nice and colonized.

[NyteBlade]

After reading through this thread, I just have a few questions...
First, it's mentioned iron/traces should be dosed and they're listed separately on the dosing page.

Is CSM+B sufficient for iron in a medium to high light setup, or is some additional iron in the form of Flourish Iron/Iron Chelate needed?

It was suggested a bit earlier in the thread that root tabs be considered for healthier growth. Does anyone recommend trying root tabs in a substrate such as Eco Complete or Flourite, or do root tabs + EI dosing usually lead to major problems?

[Left C]

Originally Posted by NyteBlade

After reading through this thread, I just have a few questions...
First, it's mentioned iron/traces should be dosed and they're listed separately on the dosing page.

Is CSM+B sufficient for iron in a medium to high light setup, or is some additional iron in the form of Flourish Iron/Iron Chelate needed?

It was suggested a bit earlier in the thread that root tabs be considered for healthier growth. Does anyone recommend trying root tabs in a substrate such as Eco Complete or Flourite, or do root tabs + EI dosing usually lead to major problems?

The following doesn't really answer you question, but I'd like to point out 3 different versions of EI.

This regimen adds extra iron plus potassium sulfate is added too:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/wa...-regimes_.html

This regimen does not add any potassium sulfate or extra iron:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...ing-guide.html

This is the dosing regimen that I use. It removes the potassium sulfate and adds a GH Booster instead. I use Seachem Equilibrium for the GH Booster and Tropica's Plant Nutrition liquid (TMG) for the trace elements. I dose Flourish Iron 2X a week.
http://www.barrreport.com/estimative...chy-folks.html

[Wö£fëñxXx]

Originally Posted by NyteBlade

Is CSM+B sufficient for iron in a medium to high light setup, or is some additional iron in the form of Flourish Iron/Iron Chelate needed?

Yes CSM+B is sufficient with enough iron, if you feel
you need a tad bit of iron, just dose more CSM+B.
On the other hand if you have a tank full of demanding
plants under intense light adding iron whether it be Flourish
or 10% Chelate would be an advantage.
I am one of those who dose heavy so you will get various
opinions on the matter.

Originally Posted by NyteBlade

It was suggested a bit earlier in the thread that root tabs be considered for healthier growth. Does anyone recommend trying root tabs in a substrate such as Eco Complete or Flourite, or do root tabs + EI dosing usually lead to major problems?

I personally don't use root tabs, I have however tried them
just so I could see what effects it had seeing how I am giving
advice on these particular subjects.
All plants will take in nutrients from the leaves and stem so
a steady dosing regime into the water column yields excellent
results with no need for root tabs.
But using the tabs is OK too.
The overall plan of said individual, type of plants, amount of light
will also determine whether you should or shouldn't use them.
For instance, less light with swords and crypts and minimal
water column dosing, the tabs will be an important improvement
for plant nutrients.
Depends on the over all scenario and goal of the individual.