10 ft. Long Stand, Double Tank Advice

[intermediate_noob]

Originally Posted by mistergreen

Hey, I'm starting to build this stand and I wonder why you took out the corner brace/post in your original design. I tested the lateral & corner movement on this and it moved slightly. It's being held together by pocket screws. I added 4 2x4 posts to the corners reaching from the ground to the very top and everything is sturdy & strong. The corners are now held together by the 2x4 and not just pocket screws.

When my friend and I started to build up the stand and ended up jointing and planing the wood, we realized that the corner screw boards were no longer necessary. Those pieces, as the original designer stated, were only to make the stand easier to put together and have no real structural significance. If your corners were moving, then it could be a number of things, but my guess would be the joints where the 2x4s come together (the ends). With the jointed and planed wood (and a lot of luck) we got perfect joints. My stand does not move at all.

In your stand, if the 2x4s you used for the corners go from the very top to the floor, unlike the original design, they have now become load bearing. This has been a point of contention within the thread, but the original designer specifically stated they should not be from top to bottom. I do not think it would make that much of a difference, but you may want to go back and look at the points made by those in this thread.

The secret was the jointing and planing. It made the stand super straight and level.

[mistergreen]

did you skin you frame yet?

yeah. I didn't have a planer, which made things harder to square but I got it done. I'm pretty anal with measurements.

I'm laminating a few boards together to make the top now.

[intermediate_noob]

Originally Posted by mistergreen

did you skin you frame yet?

yeah. I didn't have a planer, which made things harder to square but I got it done. I'm pretty anal with measurements.

I'm laminating a few boards together to make the top now.

I am laminating boards together for the six foot stand I am building. And no, I have not skinned the stand as of yet because I was unable to find any decent plywood until recently. After the first of the year when my friend is back I am going to go out and buy it to at least skin that stand and build the canopy. When I get plywood is also when I will be finishing the lamination.

I am very hopeful (crossing fingers) that I can be done before spring!!!

[mistergreen]

I can't find any good plywood either, so I'm making laminated panels. They look good and it's only a few dollars more expensive and more time of course.. I don't have a truck so I can't haul large sheets of plywood anyway.

[intermediate_noob]

Originally Posted by mistergreen

I can't find any good plywood either, so I'm making laminated panels. They look good and it's only a few dollars more expensive and more time of course.. I don't have a truck so I can't haul large sheets of plywood anyway.

http://theheadlemur.typepad.com/remodeling_for_geeks/2008/06/fun-with-plywood-2.html


This is the stuff you can pick up at the Home Depot or Lowes that seems pretty good. I hear ya on the truck situation. I have to get it cut down in order to bring it home.

How are you laminating your panels?

[mistergreen]

just wood glue, wood and 4-5 large clamps.
I glue a few 1x10 boards together and you have a nice panel.
After doing it a few times, it's best to route or rip the sides then apply glue to both sides of the joined edge.

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...GluePanel.html

[intermediate_noob]

Originally Posted by mistergreen

just wood glue, wood and 4-5 large clamps.
I glue a few 1x10 boards together and you have a nice panel.
After doing it a few times, it's best to route or rip the sides then apply glue to both sides of the joined edge.

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...GluePanel.html

I understand what you mean now. This was what I was going to do originally for the doors, but decided to go for frame and panel. Hopefully someday I will have this thing completed!

[gmccreedy]

Is this thing done?

[Curator]

Originally Posted by EcoGeek

I am a woodworker, so I have made use of this site in the past. If you take the time to do your weight calculations this can be useful. I realize it is designed for shelving, but you can still use it to help determine what you'll need to support this beast.

It is called "The Sagulator."

http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator.htm

Oh god, that thing is awesome,lol... seriously has saved me allot of future expense... The way I was planning on building mine, I just found was an insane amount of overkill thanks to this calculator, thanks to you and the sagulator I can build it for less than half the original cost I thought it would be, and still have allot of overkill for what i'll be putting on it... (better safe than sorry,lol)

[intermediate_noob]

Originally Posted by gmccreedy

Is this thing done?

Wow, this post made me feel very very guilty. No it is not done. Honest truth? Life has got in the way and I am not motivated, however things may change soon.

Right now as it stands (no pun intended), the 90 gallon or 4' stand is built but not skinned. I have the plans laid out for what wood I will need and the cuts. I also have recently bought a router, bits, more pocket hole screws, and was given a radial arm saw. Hopefully this will make things easier seeing as my friend is out of town for awhile and I cannot use his tools. There is however and issue, I am really having a hard time with one thing. The doors.

We are not talking Jim Morrison here, but with the type of doors for the stand. I wanted to do frame and panel, but the more I think about it, the less it sounds like something that will come out looking like I want it.

Thoughts from you all who may have built these before? Should I go frame and panel or go with what MisterGreen said with gluing together some 1x10s and getting a good panel? Also, if someone could give me a swift kick in the rear to get going would also appreciate it. Thanks!

[Hoppy]

Here is one door option: http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=5986, good for those with woodworking skills still in need of development.

[BiscuitSlayer]

Don't feel bad IN. I am (have been) in the same boat as you. Dry on funds, motivation, and most of all time. I am going to have a bit of time to work on my stand soon, and hopefully I'll make a little bit of a dent in it when I decide to get to work.

As far as the doors go, there are probably a few options you might be able to take. If you go the route that Mr.Green suggests, you should be able to make some very nice doors. You are going to need some very straight lumber that is free from warping, otherwise it is going to look like hammered c**p. Another route might be to have a cabinet maker make the doors to your spefications. I know it is an easy way out, but they might be able to make you the perfect doors for a reasonable price. If you go the panel door route, you don't have to worry too much about being straight. You have the router, so making the panel door won't be as difficult. I believe you have all of the necessary power tools to get them done. Here is what my idea would be (based off of what I have already done with panel doors):

1. Run a dado/groove down the length of the lumber. I would suggest making multiple passes, increasing the depth each time. Don't try to do too much at one time or you might have problems or a broken bit or two. With something like this, I don't try to take out too much more than 1/8" to 1/4" per pass.

I like to use 1" x 2"s. The actual material you would have to work with would be 3/4" rather than 1", but you already know this. I am just explaining it for people that might not realize the difference. Find the center of the wood and then center your bit so that you are running down the center of the wood for where the panel will go. As far as the depth of the dado/groove goes, I like to shoot for exactly 1/2" for the end result. The reason for this is explained in more detail in step 3. I would suggest running entire lengths of lumber through the router so that your frame pieces are all consistent. If you don't have the bit exactly centered, it won't matter as much if you do this with entire lengths of wood. Make sure to try this on a test piece or two before you use the "good stuff".

2. Make your miter cuts on the lumber at 45 degree angles. Mark each of your frame pieces with an x on the same side of each piece so you keep the dado/groove orientated the same throughout the entire frame. This way it won't matter if the dado/groove is not centered exactly. It will, however, be exactly the same throughout the entire frame piece.

I like to measure the outside of the cuts on this so that I get the outside dimensions of the doors to my liking. The best way to do this is with a miter sled on a table saw, but you can use a miter saw to accomplish the same thing. Just make sure that your miter saw is set up for exact 45 degree cuts. Once again, make a test cut or to make sure you are good to go before cutting the "good stuff".

3. Now you should have your frame(s) built. Dry fit them and prepare to get your measurements for the panel piece. Lay them out flat to see how it looks with the "x" all facing the same direction, either up or down. Whatever your inside measurements (top to bottom and side to side) are, add one inch if your dado/groove was 1/2". You might wind up shaving a little bit more off of the top or bottom of each of the panels before you get the perfect fit, but it should be really close. Remember that the panel can be a tad smaller and it should still work perfectly. The other important thing to remember here is to make sure your panels are orientated the same way (consistent grain direction) for all panels. Draw some rough lines on the wood before you perform the cuts if necessary. They should sand out without any problems.

The best thing to cut your panels to the perfect size is a miter sled. You can set up your piece on the sled and get a perfect cut that is true and square. I like to cut the finished side of the plywood facing down. This will reduce chipout. Ultimately, though, chipout shouldn't be too much of a concern as you will be covering up the outer edge inside the dado/groove of the frame.

4. Dry fit each door before gluing into place. Make sure everything lines up well and fits together squarely. If you need to, mark the corners where the miters are with a line over the seams so you can fit the pieces together perfectly when gluing. The other thing you can do is put a number next to each of the little "x's" you marked earier. You can also mark corresponding "x's" with the numbers on the panel itself where the frame pieces will cover them up after final gluing. The lines will help with perfect joints before you apply the clamping pressure.

Those are just suggestions for keeping things perfect. I know if I don't follow them, I wind up with some stupid mistakes.

5. Glue and clamp everything together. I would apply glue to the outside edge of the panels and smooth it out with your finger. Then apply a bead of glue down the entire length of the dado/groove of your frame pieces (one at a time) working in either a clockwise or counter clockwise direction. As I am putting the pieces on, I apply glue to both mitered corners so that they are glued as well. Once everything is ready to clamp, making sure everything is aligned perfectly apply your clamp pressure. I like to use band clamps for this particular application. I like to use the following clamp:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...-23&lpage=none

You only need one of these clamps to do all of your doors. They work perfectly to get the job done.

Personally, I would go the paneled door route because it is easier IMO. If you glue together the pieces as mentioned above, there is a lot more finishing work evolved to get everything smooth and finished. There isn’t anything wrong with that if you are up to the task, but it is too much work for me, LOL. You would definitely want to invest in some cabinet scrapers or a good plane to take down all of the edges, and the biscuit jointer would be pretty helpful as well. You would also need some good clamps to hold everything together while you are letting the glue set.

As far as the kick in the pants go, I’ll kick you if you kick me. LOL

[intermediate_noob]

Originally Posted by Hoppy

Here is one door option: http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=5986, good for those with woodworking skills still in need of development.

I would love to do something like this, but at approximately 40 dollars a door, I cannot afford it (would need four doors, and I do not really like the styles). However, I have seen other, similar types of sites out there so this may be a good idea. Thanks alot for the advice Hoppy.

However I am still pondering the solid door. I love that look.

Thanks again for the advice!

[intermediate_noob]

Originally Posted by BiscuitSlayer

As far as the kick in the pants go, I’ll kick you if you kick me. LOL

Thanks Biscuit! I had forgotten how good it was to post on the forum to get a little motivation going.

It had been such a long time since I saw your thread that I had forgotten how you made your doors. Do you think that a half-inch panel is better than a 11/32" (3/8")? The reason I ask is that is the size of router bit I got to cut the slot for the groove in the stiles and rails of the doors. I was actually thinking of using 3/4" plywood for the rails and stiles and then use 3/8" (Or 23/32 and 11/32) for the panel. I know the edge of the plywood will show, but I am wanting the doors to be inset into the face frame so I was not too worried.

Did you use biscuits for the corners of your doors or just glue? I am wondering if I could just use my pocket hole jig to do it as well.

I think I am over-complicating things as I was going to go the whole mortising and tenon-ing the rails and stiles and doing the doors that route. I like your way a lot better.

Anyway, I am having a hard time staying coherent, need to sleep. (Worked just under 100 hours in the last 8 days) Thanks for all the guidance Biscuit. Tell you what, you finish before me and I will send you some of my swords that are outgrowing my 55!

Have a good night.

[BiscuitSlayer]

Originally Posted by intermediate_noob

Do you think that a half-inch panel is better than a 11/32" (3/8")? The reason I ask is that is the size of router bit I got to cut the slot for the groove in the stiles and rails of the doors. I was actually thinking of using 3/4" plywood for the rails and stiles and then use 3/8" (Or 23/32 and 11/32) for the panel. I know the edge of the plywood will show, but I am wanting the doors to be inset into the face frame so I was not too worried.

I am having a hard time visualizing what you are saying above, especially with the "rails and stiles". You plan on using plywood to create the frame for the panel?

As far as the panel thickness, it is up to you, really. I would imagine that a dado on a piece of lumber that is roughly 3/4" is going to be eaiser with a thinner pannel/dado. I see no problem with reducing the size down to 3/8". That should be plenty ridgid enough for the application, as the completed door will be pretty sturdy.

Originally Posted by intermediate_noob

Did you use biscuits for the corners of your doors or just glue? I am wondering if I could just use my pocket hole jig to do it as well.

I just used glue, but bisuits or your pocket hole jig would be better. My plan is to use some of those brass L brackets on the front and back of each corner. I wanted to keep everything streight and add a bit of flash to the look. It isn't going to be as solid as one of the joinery methods that you mentioned though.

Originally Posted by intermediate_noob

I think I am over-complicating things as I was going to go the whole mortising and tenon-ing the rails and stiles and doing the doors that route. I like your way a lot better.

Mortise and tennons will be a hell of a lot stronger than what I have suggested. It will also be a lot more complicated to execute although not impossible. I wouldn't bother as I don't think it is necessary to the design. If you were talking about something that was going to be loadbearing or structural integrity was paramount then it would be the way to go.

I figure 10 years down the road if my doors fall apart, the most I will have do do is make a new set of doors. I would have to find a new method of construction, obviously.

I built a similar set of doors for a custom iguana cage I made about 18 years ago. Those doors were not as well made, and I followed a similar method to make them. They are still holding up fine. I figure my doors will work atleast that long.