moss rope ladder

[spypet]

well, I was not going to update yet, but if you want some progress, here's what's new thus far.

the manila rope does in fact biodegrade very slowly. from the photo you can see it hosting 2 different types of slime after only a Month in this tank. however I have not put any moss on them yet, so perhaps when I do this issue won't matter as the rope hosts it's own little ecosystem of bacteria microorganisms and plants, namely the moss itself. but for people who don't want to add much more to their bioload, then I'd stick with nylon. I'll be adding moss to these manila ropes in a few weeks to see if they grow or attach any different than the nylon.

Regardless, I'm keeping some manila in my tank as I want to see if it shows any sign of falling apart like coconut does after 4-6 Months. at least coconut fiber does NOT host this kind of slime. This slime may also be my fault, as this particular stem tank is not kept as clean as it should be. I'll clean the rope off with hot water and a H202 soak, clean my tank thoroughly, and start over to see if the slime reappears in another Month.



with the 1/2 clear mesh with moss, the f.fontanus has not grown much since it's still acclimating to a new tank. however the flame moss one is doing better, as flame moss is a faster grower than fissidens. Crystalview, as for how thick to make it, I would just experiment with anything 3" wide before you fold it, so the contents are held in place, but not so tight that portions get their light blocked and die. one negative of this horizontal net idea instead of vertical rope, is that anything horizontal accumulates more tank debris than vertical, so if you want to keep things clean, keep them upright. as much as I wanted to do this with Subwassertang, my tank does not grow it well, so I'm not going to bother with it until I can afford compressed Co2; moss may not need Co2, but I'm getting lazy, so I need compressed Co2 to deter algae and to help lower the pH in my moss tank.



thank you autofocus gods for such a good shot of a male Brachygobius aggregatus

leoslizards - I'm sorry I have not worked with the aluminum shaping rope idea, but I only have a few small tanks, and not enough room for my current project ideas to do them all. I would suggest trying it with flame moss, which grows relatively fast and because it grows to toward light, it will make any shape you form more interesting.

Fish Newb - you ready for me to mail you some netting? PM me if yes. I'm sorry your willow moss didn't make it but I now appreciate what you mean by that moss being finicky, and have greater respect for people who do grow it successfully as I do for people who grow Subwassertang well.

[capricorn77]

Spypet,
I have been following this thread with great interest, with the hope of emulating what you've been able to do so successfully.

I do have a question that I hope you can help answer:
When you let the moss entangled rope hang vertically, do you find that the moss at the top tend to grow faster and more robust than the ones closer to the substrate?
If so, how do you make them grow so evenly?

Thanks!

[Crystalview]

I have mine attached to suction cups. I rotate up/down/side to side when I change the water weekly.

[A Hill]

Spy thanks for the updates!

I will need some near the end of the month. I'll be taking down the tank slowly then redoing it, in the between time I'll just have moss on these mesh sections after I set my tank back up (There will be a complete substrate switch and cleaning to get rid of the planaria) When I set the tank back up more than half of it will be leaf litter, I'm going to put the mesh on suction cups and put it over the leaf litter section.

Kind of confusing

Spy whats your experiences with H2O2 and Clado on moss? The H2O2 killed the willow what about others? I might try and save the giant clump of Taiwan but not too sure thats possible lol.

-Andrew

[spypet]

Originally Posted by Fish Newb

Spy whats your experiences with H2O2 and Clado on moss? The H2O2 killed the willow what about others? I might try and save the giant clump of Taiwan but not too sure thats possible lol.

Taiwan's pretty tough. you can even use 20:1 bleach, but only dip it for 30 seconds, not an entire minute. the algae should turn
red or white, and dissolve away in a few weeks. The only stuff such dip treatments have ruined was Subwassertang and Willow,
but of course your results may vary. I guess it has to do with how meaty the moss is, so a finer moss, may be less vulnerable to dip.

Fish Newb's stringy left, spikey right - red and gray fuzz is algae I just killed with H202 that has yet to dissolve away.

Originally Posted by capricorn77

When you let the moss entangled rope hang vertically, do you find that the moss at the top tend to grow faster and more robust than the ones closer to the substrate? If so, how do you make them grow so evenly?

Crystalview's idea to turn it upside down every Month is good, if you are growing a multidirectional moss such as Taiwan or Xmas. If you are growing something UP like stringy or flame, or DOWN like weeping or spikey, turning it would defeat the purpose of enjoying the directional nature of the moss. from my observations, the middle half of the rope enjoys the best growth, as the top quarter actually gets light on an angle, and the bottom quarter's light gets blocked by other plants. obviously my observations are due to the way my light fixture is positioned, and that my tank is not fully dedicated to moss, so I expect other peoples results to vary. That's why I wish more people would post their results on this thread once their ropes are 3-4 Months mature.

[frozenbarb]

FIshnewb moss looks alot like willow moss.

The fonds on that moss is too big to be stringy

[spypet]

Originally Posted by frozenbarb

FIshnewb moss looks alot like willow moss.
The fonds on that moss is too big to be stringy

this is actually my second stringy moss project, the first stringy coming from another source 6 Months ago, so I recognized it as stringy right away. my observations are stringy moss gets branchy when grown on a vertical surface, while on a horizontal surface it grows thicker in long narrow chains. It may have to do with some programming the moss has in nature to maximize the light exposure each new series of frond can get.

Willow moss has a MUCH larger frond than the spikey moss pictured on the right (in my previous post photo), with each frond looking very much like a green colored long grain rice kernel. the spikey moss in my photo is denser than Taiwan or Xmas, but the fronds are about the same size. the weight of that increased frond density may be responsible for helping it weep on me. another observation is how each Willow moss leaf come out in alternating spots, while most other moss have leafs that come out from the common stem on opposite sides from each other.

to clarify, I am no expert at identifying moss, I'm simply stating the identities from what people say they are in trade, and other first hand experience.

stringy moss grown off a horizontal surface;

[loachlady5]

Awesome New project here I come!!!

[A Hill]

Originally Posted by frozenbarb

FIshnewb moss looks alot like willow moss.

The fonds on that moss is too big to be stringy

Stringy's fronds are one of the largest on any moss I've seen outside of the Willow family.

That moss was sent to Loh K L to be IDed by the Prof. Biento and it is indeed stringy. It can show all kinds of growth styles besides that classic straight up one you expect. It will branch very nicely sometimes as well...

You're probably thinking of 'nano moss' which I only have a couple strands of that is very delicate and small, hoping to collect some more this year

As for willow its next to impossible to grow. The good news is that willow I sent you Spy is starting to do well in my 10g its grown an inch or so in the past 5 months

Here are some willow moss pictures...

Granted most I have are OOW but it still shows the differences!





No doubt my favorites, but they just like to waste away and die on me NOT an easy moss to grow.

-Andrew

[spypet]

perhaps once your willow moss has acclimated to your tank,
it will survive distribution to other people's tanks as well.
your willow is big and beautiful, and I hope to have another
chance to grow it myself once I get compressed Co2 to help
me keep it algae free. I think if you photographed it against
a $100 bill, it would look a lot greener


01/21: here is the spiky moss a week after bleach dip;

[A Hill]

Originally Posted by spypet

perhaps once your willow moss has acclimated to your tank,
it will survive distribution to other people's tanks as well.
your willow is big and beautiful, and I hope to have another
chance to grow it myself once I get compressed Co2 to help
me keep it algae free. I think if you photographed it against
a $100 bill, it would look a lot greener

It seems to have, it is also just a very slow grower the gigantea species and one of the smaller species I'm growing in my 10g.

Those pictures are before they died on me due to not keeping good care of them. They are very easy to find in the local rivers, streams, and creeks so I plan on collecting and not killing more this year...

I may try that photography advice!

-Andrew

[pawslover]

Originally Posted by spypet

Nylon and/or Polyester are both petroleum product plastics.
they are completely aquarium safe. select fine stem plants
will melt when in contact with plastic, but not any mosses.

polypropylene OK?

[spypet]

Originally Posted by pawslover

polypropylene OK?

yes. actually the rope I use is made out of polypropylene.
my spell checker probably turned it into polyester, sorry.
you usually see it called Nylon or Poly rope, but pretty
much any inert water stable petroleum product is fine.

I corrected that original quoted post thanks to you

while I still dabble with natural fiber rope, I have not
found any that hold together and will not biodegrade
while submerged in fresh water.

coconut fiber rope is remarkable at resisting degradation,
however it will fall apart into a pile of fibers after 6 Months.

I'm currently looking to find a sample of Raffia rope
in hopes it might have all the qualities I seek.

If anyone has some untreated Sisal rope laying around
from their cat, I would not mind playing with a few
feet of that one too, though I doubt Sisal will resist
biodegrading any better than Manilla did. You don't
even have to send it to me; simply submerge it in a
container of old tank water for a Month, and let me
know what happens.

I suspect Manilla rope holds up better in Salt water,
that's why it remains so popular with mariners.

[Crystalview]

Andrew what does your nano moss look like. I guess I missed reading about it.


Spy, I have some raffia that I use in crafts. What size would you need and how long? I is not rope per say but could be woven so.

[spypet]

anyone hungry for my moss filled doughnuts?

I found that mounting my mesh moss bars in a circle, not only saves on suction cups, but it helps keep the moss from growing right up against the glass, thus being deprived of reflected light. I also notice when the mesh moss bars were up against the glass, I was seeing decaying plant debris accumulate there, and interfere with the mosses natural growth patterns. since the moss and mesh are neutrally buoyant, it stays in place horizontally even with good water flow. the gaps allow other stems you may have still growing below to get light, and grow tall between these mesh doughnuts. in a few Month once the moss fills in more, obviously I'll have to reconsider what to do with this tanks stem collection. I adjusted the height halfway between the gravel top and the water line where I seem to be getting my best growth given my tank layout, water flow, and lighting. my goal is to achieve optimal growth patterns in each moss, with minimal brown spots and algae. I could have reinforced these rings with some aluminum wire to define any closed shape I want; such as circle, square, hexagon, but I'm fine with these loosely shaped triangles for the time being. other advantages of this method compared to nylon rope is how I see far less moss break loose around my tank bottom, and any dead moss drops out the bottom of these mesh rings and biodegrades in my gravel, thus separating itself form all the healthy green moss growing above. my fish seem to love swimming in and around these rings, and they catch some food for the mid/top swimmers to enjoy, before the bottom feeders hog it all on the gravel bed. at night some fish actually sleep right over and against the moss, like it's their bed or nest.


some of my other moss being farmed into mesh doughnuts



those two new rings in back will be spiky (to see it weep) and stringy (to see it go straight up);



flame moss filling in right before a trim;




the same moss after a trim - notice no brown spots;



my painfully slow growing fissidens fontanus coming in nicely