Poor Mans Auto Dosing, Take III

[MiSo]

noob here....

what solution exactly are you dosing?

[jgc]

is your micro bottle in the dark? If so not sure of a solution (perhaps adding some magic potion (like a 3x od of excel) to your micro bottle?)

[scolley]

Wasserpest - though I've already got my autodosing set up, I think it is great that you are actually working out an economical alternative!

I hope you are going to keep posting your progress, for if so, and if this proves successful long term we might see a lot more autodosing. And if that is the case, I really look forward to dialogs about autodosing protocols and regimens. For instance:

1) Is it better to auto-dose with a level target? This implies that after each water change you have to perform a "gap dose" for the new water.

2) Do you dose micros on the same day as micros? And if so, do you dose them daily (obviously in smaller doses)?

3) Do you do periodic testing to understand your plants uptake rates set your auto dosing levels accordingly? Or do you do adopt something closer to an "autodose EI", with target assumptions and allowing water changes to keep this from getting to out of line?

These are just a few of the questions that I've had to decide my own answers to over the last year or so of autodosing. I welcome the possibility of a larger group of autodosing members so we can begin to hash some of this out.

Please keep up the good work. And please keep us informed of your long term progress!

[Wasserpest]

Originally Posted by MiSo

noob here....

what solution exactly are you dosing?

Micros: Flourish and Flourish Iron
Macros: KNO3, K2SO4, KH2PO4

[Wasserpest]

Originally Posted by jgc

is your micro bottle in the dark? If so not sure of a solution (perhaps adding some magic potion (like a 3x od of excel) to your micro bottle?)

It's not in the dark. Hmmm... does keeping them in the dark prevent this kind of growth? I could try that...

Yep, I was thinking of adding something antifungus to the solution... not sure what though. Is Excel good for something like that? I thought about using a drop of bleach?? Or some medication? Of course, I want to make sure it doesn't turn the iron to rust or something like that.

[Wasserpest]

Originally Posted by scolley

1) Is it better to auto-dose with a level target? This implies that after each water change you have to perform a "gap dose" for the new water.

I don't want to overcomplicate things. It would be easy to do with a timer like I am using... they allow for up to six programs per day, and I am only using two right now. So you could dose every day twice, but the day after water change 4 times! However, I don't think the absolute level is all that important, as long as the overall proportions are okay and nothing has bottomed out completely.

Originally Posted by scolley

2) Do you dose micros on the same day as micros? And if so, do you dose them daily (obviously in smaller doses)?

Yep, like described earlier, I have them on the same timer, and dose daily (right now twice daily for the 100 gal tank). I used to dose twice a week, so I just multiplied what I dosed by four, which gives me a 2 week supply.

Originally Posted by scolley

3) Do you do periodic testing to understand your plants uptake rates set your auto dosing levels accordingly? Or do you do adopt something closer to an "autodose EI", with target assumptions and allowing water changes to keep this from getting to out of line?

Yes, I test for N and P. Last week I did and P looked perfect in both tanks, while N was too low in the 100 gal tank. I had noticed a little more BGA growth on the substrate... which is another visible proof that the N went too lean. So I adjusted the concentration in the bottle.
I am just too curious to not test. But I guess after a few weeks of steady results and good plant growth I will probably only test when there is some sort of issue.

[scolley]

Originally Posted by Wasserpest

I don't want to overcomplicate things. It would be easy to do with a timer like I am using... they allow for up to six programs per day, and I am only using two right now. So you could dose every day twice, but the day after water change 4 times! However, I don't think the absolute level is all that important, as long as the overall proportions are okay and nothing has bottomed out completely.

I'm sorry Wasserpest, I should have been more clear... I meant a "manual" gap dose. I've have great success with autodosing in the past, (my current 75g stabilizing problems not withstanding ), and one of the things I've vacillated back and forth on is the protocol...

1) Dose a level amount daily, and never any additional manual doses. Such as an extra manual dose to close the gap of what was lost after a water change. This implies that you auto doses is all you need, but you do that with the understanding that your ferts will be lowest right after a water change, and highest just before.

- or -

2) Dose a level amount daily, with the aim of holding the tank on a given ppm target for each fert. This means that after a water change you must do a manual dose to replace what was lost. In fact, if your daily dose can hold your ppm steady, that means that you can use your manual gap dose to raise or lower your ppm's because your autodose is set almost perfectly to your up take rates. Unless you remove water from the tank (like a water change), where ever you put it, it stays.

Or that's the idea anyway. I've gone on trips for about 20 days, come home and found my N within 1-2 ppm of where I left it, and my P within 0.2.

The flip side of that luxury is, of course, that you have to dose manually after a water change.

Can't have it both ways. I was wondering how you approached this, and will be curious to see how the community approaches this is your solution catches on.

[jgc]

I have a solution of plantex and one of macros. Both are mixed with tap water. Plantex is at 1tbs/500ml. Macro has is 1tbs/500ml of KNO3, and 1/2 of NO4(maybe). They are in white half and half jugs (non translucent plastic containers). I am not sure if it is the tap water, the concentration of the ferts, or the fact that they are not recieving light, but I have no growth in mine.

I can make no personal observation on excel, but have read some threads that made me use it as a possibly magic potion. I am probably going to buy some in the next month or so (perhaps the next hr to be honest - since I suspect I have a c02 diffecency in a tank and feel my ladder is maxed out.

[m.lemay]

For micros I've been dosing 4ml/day, 7 days a week, via the Liquidoser. I don't add more on water change day. It's been working great for about 3 years now. Plants seem to be able to store the needed micros during the lean periods, if there are any. I'd say that 3 years is a long term study.

Marcel

[Wasserpest]

Originally Posted by Scolley

I'm sorry Wasserpest, I should have been more clear... I meant a "manual" gap dose. I've have great success with autodosing in the past, (my current 75g stabilizing problems not withstanding ), and one of the things I've vacillated back and forth on is the protocol...

1) Dose a level amount daily, and never any additional manual doses. Such as an extra manual dose to close the gap of what was lost after a water change. This implies that you auto doses is all you need, but you do that with the understanding that your ferts will be lowest right after a water change, and highest just before.

- or -

2) Dose a level amount daily, with the aim of holding the tank on a given ppm target for each fert. This means that after a water change you must do a manual dose to replace what was lost. In fact, if your daily dose can hold your ppm steady, that means that you can use your manual gap dose to raise or lower your ppm's because your autodose is set almost perfectly to your up take rates. Unless you remove water from the tank (like a water change), where ever you put it, it stays.

"Manual gap dose"... you can do it. Like I said, it would be extremely easy to program the timer to do this for you as well (with the kind of timers I am using). Say you add 1/4 tsp of something every day, which keeps your levels stable. Now you change 50% of the water, and figure you need 1/2 tsp to get to the previous levels. Just set the timer to dose an additional time after the water change, and now it's all automatic

I think when you go from dosing once a week or twice to daily dosing, you will notice that you need to increase the dosis a little bit, more than what you calculate... Example, if you dosed 1 tsp once a week, and now dose daily, you will probably want to use slightly more than one tsp in the solution (or more than 2 tsp if the solution lasts two weeks, etc). This goes along the lines what Marcel said, plants seem to be able to store nutrients for a while. The weekly or biweekly dosings provide them with a temporarily higher concentration, while with daily dosing you don't reach these levels.

Not sure though...

The question is, how exact do we need to keep the levels? EI is based on overdosing, while when you autodose, you can get the levels pretty close to what you and your plants want/need. I like lower levels, for reduced biomass production

[Wasserpest]

Originally Posted by jgc

I have a solution of plantex and one of macros. Both are mixed with tap water. Plantex is at 1tbs/500ml. Macro has is 1tbs/500ml of KNO3, and 1/2 of NO4(maybe). They are in white half and half jugs (non translucent plastic containers). I am not sure if it is the tap water, the concentration of the ferts, or the fact that they are not recieving light, but I have no growth in mine.

I can make no personal observation on excel, but have read some threads that made me use it as a possibly magic potion. I am probably going to buy some in the next month or so (perhaps the next hr to be honest - since I suspect I have a c02 diffecency in a tank and feel my ladder is maxed out.

My micro mixture is pretty low concentration, I assume... its about 3/4 of a gallon of tap water, with 12 ml Flourish and 12 ml Flourish Iron. It's got a dark urine, I mean, amber, coloration. I will watch this for a couple of weeks, and if it doesn't go away or gets worse, try covering the milk jugs. If that doesn't help, I'll look for more input... Excel might be a possibility, not sure about its fungicidal properties... according to Seachem, it helps to keep the ferrous Iron in it's reduced state, so I figure it wouldn't hurt to add some to the solution. A true magic potion?

[scolley]

Originally Posted by Wasserpest

"Manual gap dose"... you can do it. Like I said, it would be extremely easy to program the timer to do this for you as well (with the kind of timers I am using). Say you add 1/4 tsp of something every day, which keeps your levels stable. Now you change 50% of the water, and figure you need 1/2 tsp to get to the previous levels. Just set the timer to dose an additional time after the water change, and now it's all automatic

Yea, but then you had better make sure you do that water change when this timer expects it. If you are late, it's all messed up. That's why I stick to a manual gap dose.

Originally Posted by Wasserpest

The question is, how exact do we need to keep the levels? EI is based on overdosing, while when you autodose, you can get the levels pretty close to what you and your plants want/need. I like lower levels, for reduced biomass production

In my particular setup, I found holding daily values to 12ppm Nitrogen, 1.2ppm Phosphorus, and a targeted 20-25ppm Potassium to keep growth moderate and the tank algae free. But that's a 1 yr sample of 1 person. And the Potassium values are assumptive due to lack of good measurement tools. So based on moving Potassium values up and down until I saw signs of deficiency, I concluded that my ratio of Nitrogen uptake to Potassium uptake was 1ppm:1.2ppm. I'm sure other people's results will vary...

[jgc]

Will post a picture of the jugs I am using when I get the chance. They are half n half jugs. Solid white - they are not the translucent milk jugs - more like the white bleach bottles, or the white tropicana bottles (and for some reason I think Tide comes in a white bottle).

My micro is dark "amber" as well.

[Wasserpest]

I redid the airpump dosing... with all these drip irrigators it wasn't possible to do any kind of adjustment. So I ordered a couple of these: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...fm?pcatid=8165 brass valves, got 1/8x1/8 female hose barbs at the hardware store, and this is what now regulates the "bubble count". Took me a few hours to find the perfect flow, but that's nothing... now I don't have to worry about it except for a refill every two weeks.

[magicmagni]

Originally Posted by Wasserpest

Now since I got this working, I wanted to do something similar for my 10 gal tank. MagicMagni gets the credit for this method which I modified a little bit. The MagicMagni method has three shortcomings in my mind: The contents of the bottles are not mixed, pressure builds up in the bottle because the end of the lines is restricted, and it's difficult to adjust. So here is the product of a few hours toying around with drip irrigation parts:



Bought a 9.99 air pump with two outlets. The air line goes all the way down in the bottle, to get bubbles to mix the solution while it is running. There are four 1/2 gal drippers built into each pressure line, three are reducing the pumps output volume, and one is an open end which also "wastes" some air, and reduces the pressure buildup in the bottles.

Why is pressure in the bottles bad? Because the air volume is compressed much more than the solution, so if the bottles are almost empty, there is a long time of dripping after the pump turned off, until the air is all decompressed. So you end up with a higher dosing volume with an almost empty bottle compared to an almost full bottle. Not good.

Therefore I left the end of the fertilizer line unrestricted, this way once the pump stops the flow stops as well. Inside the bottle there is a check valve which prevents water from siphoning back into the pump. Like with the powerhead method, you just time minutes and mark the bottles to see how much solution is dosed, and adjust if necessary.

Here is the completed setup, ready to be connected to the timer:



I guess similar to switching from DIY to pressurized CO2, going from bi-weekly (me) or daily dosing to this automated solution feels great... (and is much cheaper than the CO2 switch). For those of you who prefer watching their tanks to mixing and squirting fertilizer, consider a similar setup...

Wow someone's been busy. I can't believe I didn't catch this thread earlier! That's good you worked it out. I was actually able to resolve those issues on my system that you brought up so they are no longer an issue. System has been running like a clock for the last few months. It's nice not having to dose daily isn't it? ;-)