Finding the Imbalance

tigerbarb420 · 02-01-2009, 09:26 PM

Ok so I started a 20g long tank up on December 11, 2008, with the intention of having a heavily planted tank. I set up the basic components, added 15 zebra danios and let the tank do it's thing. All was quite well, there was a minor greenwater problem during the cycling but that cleared up right as soon as the nitrogen cycle finished(which was on Jan 19th). I removed the Zebra Danios, added 4 Apisotgramma Cacatuoides, a school of 5 Emperor Tetras and 3 Amano Shrimp. So after adding a bunch of plants and Nutrafin Natural CO2 system I started dosing seachem fertilizers. I figured out the dosing for a 20g tank according to the amounts on the label and started adding bare minimum of Nitrogen, Potassium, Phosphorus and the Seachem Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium. I have already had to cut/prune all of my stem plants and replant them. All was well and the plants were thriving until about 5 days ago. Well the plants are still doing good but there are quite a few different types of algae present and they are affecting different plants primarily. My Brown Wendtii crypt's leaves are covered in a thread like algae. It appears there is BBA growing on some of the substrate along with the corkscrew val's. and there is some kind of fuzzy green algae growing on my Ludwigia Repens, Green Cabomba, Anubias nana and all over the mopani wood(not to mention this algae would pearl nightly instead of the plants). I removed half of the ludwigias, gently rubbed the algae off the leaves, used an unused toothbrush dedicated for aquarium use and brushed all the algae off the mopani wood and anubias attached to it in a dedicated bucket.

So basically I am trying to figure out what kind of imbalance I have here. This is my second go at a planted tank. I had one years ago with lots of low light/maintenance/requirement plants. This is my second one and I have done a lot of reading and research and have come to the conclusion that this is caused by some sort of imbalance. Is there anyone who can help me find out where the imbalance is coming from? Do I have too much light for the low CO2? Not enough CO2 for the light? Am I leaving the light on for too long? Not enough N,P or K? Too much N,P or K? Not enough Trace, too much trace? Am I missing something all together?

It's a 20g Long tank. I have a 65w 6700k Coralife Light which stays on for 12 hours a day, Eheim Ecco 2232 Canister Filter, Nutrafin Natural CO2 System, Eco Complete Substrate. Dosing Seachem Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium and Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium. I make a mix of what is minimum recommended per week per 20g and give 1/7th of the dose each day. I do TONS of water changes and they vary. I do 5-10g change every 2-4 days, usually adding nutrients after water change and when I do water tests the NitrAtes are usually showing on the lowest level of the chart somehwere inbetween 0 and 25 ppm.

Any advice or speculation would be greatly appreciated!

Homer_Simpson · 02-01-2009, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigerbarb420

... Am I leaving the light on for too long?... which stays on for 12 hours a day,...Any advice or speculation would be greatly appreciated!

I can only speak from my experience, but I went through something similar with a 10 gallon tank. No amount of monkeying around with fert amounts, improving diffusion of c02, dosing Excel 2x, etc., resolved the issue for me. It was only when I reduced lighting to 2 watts per gallon that things began to balance and algae recede. The tank is now algae free. I believe the root cause of your problem lies in your lighting intensity and or duration. Try reducing lighting to 8 hours for starters or try split photoperiod 6 hours on 2 hours off, 6 hours on. If that does not work try reducing intensity and keeping duration the same. If lighting controls uptake of nutrients by plants. It is critical to overall balance. Reduce lighting intensity and duration, demand for nutrients is decreased, c02 demand decreases and you are more likely to hit that magical balance and it will be easier to maintain it. Once that balance happens, algae has no choice but to retreat.

tigerbarb420 · 02-02-2009, 05:39 AM

Unfortunately lowering the intesity of the light is kind of out of the question.... unless I can buy a lower watt bulb. I spent a pretty penny on this light so I will definitely try to lower the hours to 8 hours a day and see what happens.

hokuryu · 02-02-2009, 11:11 AM

I can only contribute that I have a 20H with a Coralife 65W PC, have set my tank up about the same time as you, and like you, have quite a few crypts in my tank with a huge piece of mopani. Knock on wood, I don't (yet?) have any problems with algae, except for some mild brown diatom algae along a small lower-flow area of the tank that I expect will clear in the next bit of time. Especially when I add my albino bristlenose and up the amano population tomorrow.

I've also used all Seachem products for my ferts (up to literally today, as I've run out of Flourish Phosphorus and am moving over to dry ferts).

I run my lights for 10 hours a day, and prior to the addition of injected CO2, I was overdosing Excel at quite a high rate - 5X the dosing, or 10ml daily. I also originally lowered the effective intensity on my tank by raising the light above the waterline - originally, 10". Hoppy provided some calculations to estimate how many mmols of light were reaching my tank bottom, and I came up with about 40 mmols or so as an estimated amount. Low, even with the 65W PC. It also gave a better spread of the light, which can be a problem in PC, from what I can tell (by reading and by observation).

Now, at that time, I didn't yet have any shrimp added, and only had a smallish school of zebra danios, 3 platies, and a few white clouds. I also followed EI dosing at a reduced rate of 1/3 the full EI regimen. I don't know how often you change your water, but I change mine weekly at 50%.

Once I moved over to injected CO2, and as I wanted to add amanos and RCS, I went back to regular Excel dosing (2 ml daily, except on "change" day, when I dose 5 ml - although Seachem recommends 10 ml on change day, I wasn't comfortable trying that with my shrimp in the tank.

Over the last few weeks, I've come to better understand and embrace Tom Barr's philosophy on plant needs - he, and a few other people on board were quite helpful to me during this early part of my startup (many - DaveS, Homer, Hoppy, Imeridian, JDowns, plakat, and many others as well - thanks goes to them all, a great community), and it was from Tom that I came to employ the Excel regimen, and the modified EI dosing.

The Excel overdosing and "modified EI" were because I didn't employ CO2 at the time, and my light was raised quite high off my tank. Now that I have dropped my light down to within a few inches of the tank, and am injecting CO2, I dose at full EI and have pulled back the Excel. Again, I consider myself only lucky up to this point, as I don't fully know what I'm doing and am only following the advice of others, while I continue to understand their reasoning behind the advice.

From a neophyte, if you haven't read his work, I'd recommend a read of the Barre Report, and the many discussions on this board on plant needs. Here's a few threads in which Tom and others helped me a good deal:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/ge...ven-setup.html

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/ge...m-line-ei.html

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/ge...uid-ferts.html

Good luck.

Shoey · 02-05-2009, 10:13 PM

If you double the distance from the lights to the water, the light intensity is cut in half.

In short just rise the lights above from the water.

Al

**Hoppy** · 02-06-2009, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoey

If you double the distance from the lights to the water, the light intensity is cut in half.

In short just rise the lights above from the water.

Al

I think it is better to go by the distance to the substrate, not the water. It is at the substrate that the light intensity is the lowest, and that is also where the carpet plants that are reputed to need the most light spend their days. The light intensity will drop off with the square of the distance unless the bulb is as long as the tank, then the drop off in the center area of the tank is closer to being directly proportional to the distance.

**MarkMc** · 02-06-2009, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoey

If you double the distance from the lights to the water, the light intensity is cut in half.

In short just rise the lights above from the water.

Al

I think it's actually less than a half. More along the lines of 1/4? Something about the inverse square of distance.

cjp999 · 02-06-2009, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkMc

I think it's actually less than a half. More along the lines of 1/4? Something about the inverse square of distance.

Yes, 1/4th. Think of light shining on a 1x1 grid. Move the light up 2x and now it shines on a 2x2 grid, which is 4 times the area as a 1x1 grid. However...

Before moving the light up, the light probably shines brightest in the middle of the 1x1 grid. Thus the dimmer light that is initially along the fringes of the 1x1 grid move outside the 1x1 grid when you move the light up, and you keep the brightest part of the light within the 1x1 grid. So actually you probably will get more than 1/4 the intensity within the 1x1 grid.

brohawk · 02-06-2009, 06:36 AM

But back on topic, your CO2 is too low for that much light. Increase it, by adding 1 or 2 more yeast bottles (alternate refills so you get a more consistent CO2 output) and raise the light. If you can't raise it, and can't let go of that light for something less powerful, I'd really think about going pressurized. I wouldn't fiddle w/ your ferts for now. Once you get the plants growing better, and not the algae, you can go back to adjusting your ferts if/when you start to see deficiencies in your plants. Hope that helps.

02-01-2009, 09:26 PM	#1 (permalink)
tigerbarb420 Newbie (View User Tanks) PTrader: (0/0%) Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Edmonton, Alberta Posts: 3	Finding the Imbalance Ok so I started a 20g long tank up on December 11, 2008, with the intention of having a heavily planted tank. I set up the basic components, added 15 zebra danios and let the tank do it's thing. All was quite well, there was a minor greenwater problem during the cycling but that cleared up right as soon as the nitrogen cycle finished(which was on Jan 19th). I removed the Zebra Danios, added 4 Apisotgramma Cacatuoides, a school of 5 Emperor Tetras and 3 Amano Shrimp. So after adding a bunch of plants and Nutrafin Natural CO2 system I started dosing seachem fertilizers. I figured out the dosing for a 20g tank according to the amounts on the label and started adding bare minimum of Nitrogen, Potassium, Phosphorus and the Seachem Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium. I have already had to cut/prune all of my stem plants and replant them. All was well and the plants were thriving until about 5 days ago. Well the plants are still doing good but there are quite a few different types of algae present and they are affecting different plants primarily. My Brown Wendtii crypt's leaves are covered in a thread like algae. It appears there is BBA growing on some of the substrate along with the corkscrew val's. and there is some kind of fuzzy green algae growing on my Ludwigia Repens, Green Cabomba, Anubias nana and all over the mopani wood(not to mention this algae would pearl nightly instead of the plants). I removed half of the ludwigias, gently rubbed the algae off the leaves, used an unused toothbrush dedicated for aquarium use and brushed all the algae off the mopani wood and anubias attached to it in a dedicated bucket. So basically I am trying to figure out what kind of imbalance I have here. This is my second go at a planted tank. I had one years ago with lots of low light/maintenance/requirement plants. This is my second one and I have done a lot of reading and research and have come to the conclusion that this is caused by some sort of imbalance. Is there anyone who can help me find out where the imbalance is coming from? Do I have too much light for the low CO2? Not enough CO2 for the light? Am I leaving the light on for too long? Not enough N,P or K? Too much N,P or K? Not enough Trace, too much trace? Am I missing something all together? It's a 20g Long tank. I have a 65w 6700k Coralife Light which stays on for 12 hours a day, Eheim Ecco 2232 Canister Filter, Nutrafin Natural CO2 System, Eco Complete Substrate. Dosing Seachem Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium and Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium. I make a mix of what is minimum recommended per week per 20g and give 1/7th of the dose each day. I do TONS of water changes and they vary. I do 5-10g change every 2-4 days, usually adding nutrients after water change and when I do water tests the NitrAtes are usually showing on the lowest level of the chart somehwere inbetween 0 and 25 ppm. Any advice or speculation would be greatly appreciated!

02-05-2009, 10:13 PM	#5 (permalink)
Shoey Algae Grower (View User Tanks) PTrader: (0/0%) Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 8	Easy way to lower lighting If you double the distance from the lights to the water, the light intensity is cut in half. In short just rise the lights above from the water. Al

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02-02-2009, 05:39 AM	#3 (permalink)
tigerbarb420 Newbie (View User Tanks) PTrader: (0/0%) Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Edmonton, Alberta Posts: 3	Unfortunately lowering the intesity of the light is kind of out of the question.... unless I can buy a lower watt bulb. I spent a pretty penny on this light so I will definitely try to lower the hours to 8 hours a day and see what happens.

02-02-2009, 11:11 AM	#4 (permalink)
hokuryu Planted Tank Obsessed (View User Tanks) PTrader: (3/100%) Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 407	I can only contribute that I have a 20H with a Coralife 65W PC, have set my tank up about the same time as you, and like you, have quite a few crypts in my tank with a huge piece of mopani. Knock on wood, I don't (yet?) have any problems with algae, except for some mild brown diatom algae along a small lower-flow area of the tank that I expect will clear in the next bit of time. Especially when I add my albino bristlenose and up the amano population tomorrow. I've also used all Seachem products for my ferts (up to literally today, as I've run out of Flourish Phosphorus and am moving over to dry ferts). I run my lights for 10 hours a day, and prior to the addition of injected CO2, I was overdosing Excel at quite a high rate - 5X the dosing, or 10ml daily. I also originally lowered the effective intensity on my tank by raising the light above the waterline - originally, 10". Hoppy provided some calculations to estimate how many mmols of light were reaching my tank bottom, and I came up with about 40 mmols or so as an estimated amount. Low, even with the 65W PC. It also gave a better spread of the light, which can be a problem in PC, from what I can tell (by reading and by observation). Now, at that time, I didn't yet have any shrimp added, and only had a smallish school of zebra danios, 3 platies, and a few white clouds. I also followed EI dosing at a reduced rate of 1/3 the full EI regimen. I don't know how often you change your water, but I change mine weekly at 50%. Once I moved over to injected CO2, and as I wanted to add amanos and RCS, I went back to regular Excel dosing (2 ml daily, except on "change" day, when I dose 5 ml - although Seachem recommends 10 ml on change day, I wasn't comfortable trying that with my shrimp in the tank. Over the last few weeks, I've come to better understand and embrace Tom Barr's philosophy on plant needs - he, and a few other people on board were quite helpful to me during this early part of my startup (many - DaveS, Homer, Hoppy, Imeridian, JDowns, plakat, and many others as well - thanks goes to them all, a great community), and it was from Tom that I came to employ the Excel regimen, and the modified EI dosing. The Excel overdosing and "modified EI" were because I didn't employ CO2 at the time, and my light was raised quite high off my tank. Now that I have dropped my light down to within a few inches of the tank, and am injecting CO2, I dose at full EI and have pulled back the Excel. Again, I consider myself only lucky up to this point, as I don't fully know what I'm doing and am only following the advice of others, while I continue to understand their reasoning behind the advice. From a neophyte, if you haven't read his work, I'd recommend a read of the Barre Report, and the many discussions on this board on plant needs. Here's a few threads in which Tom and others helped me a good deal: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/ge...ven-setup.html http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/ge...m-line-ei.html http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/ge...uid-ferts.html Good luck.

02-06-2009, 06:36 AM	#9 (permalink)
brohawk Planted Tank Obsessed (View User Tanks) PTrader: (9/100%) Join Date: May 2008 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 428	But back on topic, your CO2 is too low for that much light. Increase it, by adding 1 or 2 more yeast bottles (alternate refills so you get a more consistent CO2 output) and raise the light. If you can't raise it, and can't let go of that light for something less powerful, I'd really think about going pressurized. I wouldn't fiddle w/ your ferts for now. Once you get the plants growing better, and not the algae, you can go back to adjusting your ferts if/when you start to see deficiencies in your plants. Hope that helps.

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