Algae/ deficiencies in EI tank... please offer suggestions

[jart]

Hi all,

Well this 72 gallon was to be my "dream tank", but over the past 6 months it has proved to be nothing of the sort.

I had very good success and, I might say, lots of experience with EI on my previous tank. This new tank has really not gone according to plan.

After dealing with a brief episode of nuisance algae during the first month, I dealt with a severe outbreak of diatoms, which resolved about one month ago. Thanks to Homer Simpson for helping me out with that.

Lighting: 4 x 55w AH Supply kit. Lights are now about 12" above the tank (I reduced lighting during the diatom outbreak).
Photoperiod: 8 hours.
pH = 7.4
kH = 3; I figure this gives me > 30 ppm CO2.
CO2 delivered via Rex reactor.
temperature 77
Filtration: XP3 and 204

Fert schedule:
KNO3 3/4 tsp 3x/week
K2PO4 3/16 tsp 3x/week
Plantex CSM with iron 1 tbsp in 250mL: 20 mL 3x/week
MgSO4 1/2 tsp after WC
CaCl2 1/16 tsp once weekly
50% WC weekly

The diatoms are now cleared up, thankfully. Now the plants (mostly easy to grow stems) are now showing forms of deficiencies. I have attached some pics of leaves of Hygrophila species. Most notable affected is Hygrophila corymbosa "compacta". Holes appear in the leaves and eventually get to be huge. The entire leaf eventually falls off. The leaves of the polysperma are similarly affected. Likewise, several of my E. tenullus leaves (see pic) develop holes as well.

The older leaves of my Hygrophila salicifolia, on the other hand, develops pin holes that sound classic for potassium deficiency. To that end, two weeks ago I began dosing extra K2SO4 (1/16 tsp 3x/week).

Currently I have some green spot algae; rarely BGA will start to grow at the very tips of some of the plants.

I have no fish in the tank that, to my knowledge, would damage plants.

Most plants in my tank pearl quite vigorously... I am confused as to what I am doing wrong and why several of my plants (even easy ones like R. rotundifolia) are doing so poorly. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.


Corymbosa (craters) and salicifolia (pinholes)



Tenellus leaves. Only about 25% of the leaves in the tank are affected.

[Hoppy]

Not enough CO2. You can't determine how much CO2 you have by measuring the tank water pH and KH. That will almost always give you a number that is way too high.

[bsmith]

Get a drop checker with a 4dkh reagent, place it low in the tank prefereably on the same wall as the filter outlet spraying co2 around and wait for it to turn green/yellow.

Really the best way to determine proper co2 levels other then plant health, which is obviously telling you something.

[lescarpentier]

I can tell you right now that your flow is woefully inadequate.This may be preventing the CO2 from being distributed evenly throughout your tank.

Your XP doesn't deliver near the gph that is claimed.More like 187gph in reality.In addition,your reactor is reducing the actual flow probably another 50%.The 204 doesn't do much either.

It seems that your KNO3 dose is off the chart too.

[jart]

Originally Posted by bsmith782

...other then plant health, which is obviously telling you something.

No kidding
Thanks bsmith and hoppy. I have read a bit about drop checkers but hadn't realized that they are considered to be state of the art in the hobby, or so it would seem.

Originally Posted by lescarpentier

I can tell you right now that your flow is woefully inadequate.

In setting up the tank, I thought I would have lots of flow. Actually it is a 304, not a 204, and it is virtually media free, although that probably doesn't make a ton of difference. But what you are saying does make sense, especially since about a month ago, BGA would grow on the foreground plants near the centre of the tank, which is probably an area of lower flow.

So, I guess I am in the market for a drop checker and perhaps a powerhead/ water pump to increase circulation. I will do some research, but if anyone reading this would like to make a suggestion as to brand/ type of powerhead, fire away.

And lescarpentier, I found that dosing regimen for KNO3 on Tom Barr's website (a post by Greg Watson). I also found a post by Craig (wolfenxxx) on the thread "dosing regimens" (a sticky) that states the same thing. Excuse my ignorance (I have a lot of reading to catch up on)... could you make a recommendation for my tank? I suppose since you think my KNO3 dosing is too high, you'd suggest cutting out the K2SO4 as well?

Thanks again; I really appreciate all the advice from the plant experts!!

[Joetee]

I really like the Green Leaf dropcheckers. I have had another one but the normal one they sell with the wide open mouth has given me the fastest reading time. My old one took several hours to change color after adjustments were made. This one http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/al...ase-offer.html I bought two of them now. I love it.
This sticky http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/wa...-regimes_.html for your dosing should be just fine.
Now my water is hard and contains phosphates so all I add is the KN03, CSM+B, extra Iron, and GH Booster, Also Excel.
This has really helped with my algae and now everything is looking great.
Joetee

[imeridian]

Originally Posted by jart

pH = 7.4
kH = 3; I figure this gives me > 30 ppm CO2.

Disregarding the potential difficulties in using the CO2 chart, if your pH in the tank is 7.4 with a KH of 3 you have essentially no CO2 in the water. Is the 7.4 a typo or the water prior to injecting CO2? If you had a pH of 6.4 with a KH of 3 you'd have ~30ppm.

[jart]

Originally Posted by imeridian

If you had a pH of 6.4 with a KH of 3 you'd have ~30ppm.

Yes, that is a typo. My pH is indeed 6.4. I am actually the unofficial proofreader for my department at work, and now you guys have found two typos in my post . Thanks for checking out my numbers that closely, imeridian.

Thanks for the drop checker suggestion, Joetee. I appreciate it!

[lescarpentier]

Originally Posted by jart

And lescarpentier, I found that dosing regimen for KNO3 on Tom Barr's website (a post by Greg Watson). I also found a post by Craig (wolfenxxx) on the thread "dosing regimens" (a sticky) that states the same thing. Excuse my ignorance (I have a lot of reading to catch up on)... could you make a recommendation for my tank? I suppose since you think my KNO3 dosing is too high, you'd suggest cutting out the K2SO4 as well?

Thanks again; I really appreciate all the advice from the plant experts!!

3/4 tsp just seemed like a lot to me.
I have a pretty high bio load,and I am a slacker when it comes to cleaning my filters so I am almost self sufficient with my nitrates.Some weeks I don't even dose them.If you haven't already done this,test for nitrates to see what your tank really needs.

I couldn't tell you much about the K2S04,but I dose 1/16tsp 3 times a week in a 44.

GL!

[imeridian]

Aside from correcting the possible CO2 issues, if this were my tank I'd be tossing in a teaspoon of K2SO4 after the weekly water change.

[Joetee]

Originally Posted by lescarpentier

3/4 tsp just seemed like a lot to me.
I have a pretty high bio load,and I am a slacker when it comes to cleaning my filters so I am almost self sufficient with my nitrates.Some weeks I don't even dose them.If you haven't already done this,test for nitrates to see what your tank really needs.

I couldn't tell you much about the K2S04,but I dose 1/16tsp 3 times a week in a 44.

GL!

I find that consistency and balance usually works best. I used to follow the EI method rigorously. I believed I needed everything on the list at the prescribed amount. Even knowing my tap water has high phosphates I still added them. I had algae problems. Not saying phosphates caused the algae but my tanks were out of balance. This is what I think caused my trouble. Then the EI method was adjusted. It seems K2s04 wasn't needed for the most part. So i dropped it. But I still dosed KH2P04. Then I got brave and stopped that as well because I had enough in my tap water.
Now I think my tanks are much more balanced because my algae issue is now minimum. I only dose KN03, CSM+B, extra Iron, Grumpy's GH booster, and Excel to amounts prescribed in EI. This is only for my tanks. I might not work for your tanks.
You just have to experiment and see what works. I don't perform water tests unless I feel a need. I don't calibrate my test kits either. I only use them as a reference. Your tanks will tell you more if given the time to.

Joetee

[jart]

Thanks for the additional comments; they are most welcome.

I do finds this all a bit puzzling, I must admit. I could see if I was having trouble growing more difficult plants. I didn't really know that slightly (perhaps) inadequate levels of CO2 could cause such problems with Hygrophila and Ludwigia repens. The odd thing is, even the floater Salvinia auriculata, which spreads like mad in my low light tank, does very poorly in this tank.

I have some reading to do, I must admit.

[Joetee]

Originally Posted by lescarpentier

3/4 tsp just seemed like a lot to me.
I have a pretty high bio load,and I am a slacker when it comes to cleaning my filters so I am almost self sufficient with my nitrates.Some weeks I don't even dose them.If you haven't already done this,test for nitrates to see what your tank really needs.

I couldn't tell you much about the K2S04,but I dose 1/16tsp 3 times a week in a 44.

GL!

No, for a 72 gallon tank, 3/4 tsp is about right.

60~80gal
50% H20 change-weekly
3/4 Tsp-KN03 3x a week
3/16 Tsp-KH2P04 3x a week
1 Tsp-GH booster once a week
15ml 3/16Tsp-Trace 3x a week
Optional
4-8ml-Fe/Iron 3x a week

Joetee

[Joetee]

Originally Posted by jart

Thanks for the additional comments; they are most welcome.

I do finds this all a bit puzzling, I must admit. I could see if I was having trouble growing more difficult plants. I didn't really know that slightly (perhaps) inadequate levels of CO2 could cause such problems with Hygrophila and Ludwigia repens. The odd thing is, even the floater Salvinia auriculata, which spreads like mad in my low light tank, does very poorly in this tank.

I have some reading to do, I must admit.

Lets see if we can get to the bottom of this.
You said you had a 72 gallon tank. I believe you mentioned 3 watts per gallon of lighting. What color spectrum is your lighting? 6700k? Check your reflectors and make sure they are clean. If these are AH Supply you can spread out the reflectors a bit to spread out the light some.

You mentioned you had floating plants, do they cover the surface of your tank, not letting enough light come through?

You don't have a drop checker so you really don't know your levels. Hoppy said your levels seem low. What is your bubble count/rate of your co2? Until you get a drop checker I would take a bubble rate count and then increase it a bit. Watch your fish closely, you do not want them at the surface gasping. You can increase this a little everyday. If your fish start acting strange or gasping back it off a little. Count your bubble rate for accurate adjustments.

You need to make sure you have good surface movement. You can use a power heads, raise your filter output, spray bar, etc. Make the water ripple just a little. You need good water movement down deep in your tank too. You should see your plants moving a little.

Make sure your filters are cleaned regularly. Clean them in a bucket of tank water not tap water. I use carbon and always have. Some don't. Change 1/2 of it every month or so.

Try to dose your tanks everyday at the same time, ie every night or every morning. Don't skip any day except the 7th day. If your not useing Excel, try it. What a difference it made in my plants. I dose it everyday 7.5 mil in my 29 and 15 mil in my 50.

How long has this tank been set up? My 29 was set up for a year with 100% Flourite. I pulled up everything and replanted my tank one day. And what a difference this made. My plants just boomed with grouth. I'm not sure why but I think it was because the substrate got all turned over and maybe released some toxins or something, don't know.

Have you tested your tap water? Different times of the year, your tap water can change. Mine does. Adjust your EI dosing to your tap water and also your fish load. My tap water contains phosphates and a high fish load adds more nitrates.

You can check this site and others for plant deficiencies.
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/deficiencies.htm

This is all I can think of at the moment. Any one else have some idea's?

I hope this helps.
Joetee

[plantbrain]

Those plants are hurting for CO2.
Swords will cannaibalize themselves like that, so will some Hygros for carbon to keep the new leaves growing and up towards the surface if CO2 limited.


Some plants do well, some do not.
This is often the case with okay CO2 for some plants, but poor CO2 for other species.

Do you think all aquatic plants have the same ability to sequester CO2?
Think about that, plant=plant competition.

Keep thinking................

Keep thinking...............

And keep thinking.................

You have high light, you have nutrients, neither of these will be limiting.
Water changes? Does the tank do and look better a day or so then goes back to so so conditions?

Plants will start to compete with eachother in limiting situations.
This is why things like Hydrilla, a noxious horrid weed, will displace the native species in Florida and cut down dramatically on diversity. Hydrilla is very very good at getting the most common limiting nutrients, dissolved CO2.
Most aquatic weeds are like this. That's why they grow so fast and the others do not.

Same type of thing here in our tanks.
Some plants are really aggressive and good at getting CO2, some look terrible. Stunted tips, holes in the leaves(sorry, this is not K+ here, we know the K+ is ample and non limiting), leggy growth, poor color etc etc etc........

And of course algae on some species, but not others...........

I'd really focus and tweak the CO2, clean and prune off the algae that is there slowly, say over 1-4 weeks. It should stop growing if the CO2 is good and the plants are growing well. Use only 110 W on for 4-5 hours at a time and midway, switch the lights from front to the rear bank etc.

Adjust the CO2 slowly and when you are around to keep a close eye on the tank and fish. You might need a bit more current and make sure the surface has some movement, not so much as to break the surface at all however.

Be patient adding more CO2.
Do it slowly, it can kill your fish if you rush things.

Start there.

Regards,
Tom Barr