Excel as a treatment for BBA? Experiences?

[Naja002]

SD and DAAH have their value and their place. I haven't been around there in a yr or more, but my experience is that the "core" group of folks are very adamant against progression. Maybe something has changed, but during the time that I was around there--they were all stuck in a "mind-lock" passing the same BS back and forth to each other--regardless of reality.

Also, what its has to do with anything is simply that cc_woman's post is wrought with out-dated mis-information--The same kind that you get from SD and DAAH. Plus she's into Discus and Angels. I didn't just pull SD and DAAH out of my ear....

[tacks]

I can see you have your mind made up about SD, I dont know anything about the other site. IT sounds that you are saying that people that are into discus or angels should or are not capable of doing planted tanks. I for one can and do both. I belive you will find that SD has grown a lot when it comes to planted tanks and you have many people here that I see over there. I can see that you certainly know your plants as I have read a lot of yor post, when I am in doubt I will make sure I search you out. Ed

[Naja002]

Hi Ed,

Originally Posted by tacks

I can see you have your mind made up about SD, I dont know anything about the other site.

I try not to make up my mind about much. I realize that the truth is oftentimes evasive, so I try to remain open to new information. I think I do an Ok job at it, but who knows? As far as SD goes--my info is a yr or so out of date, so things may be a bit different....

Originally Posted by tacks

IT sounds that you are saying that people that are into discus or angels should or are not capable of doing planted tanks.

No, I'm not saying that at all. It was that way over there, but not over here at PT. Folks here kept discus in their planted tanks, just over there it really wasn't possible. Yes, there were a few--very few--but generally the folks didn't pay much attention to them other than to Oooo and Ahhhhh over their tanks. They were busy doing the same things everybody else was doing--including achieving the overall lack of reproductive sucess--and nobody seemed to have a clue. Nor could they get one.

Originally Posted by tacks

I for one can and do both. I belive you will find that SD has grown a lot when it comes to planted tanks and you have many people here that I see over there.

That's Very Good and I am Happy for You. I think You understand the value of both from achieving that ability. My guess would be that the influx of people from here would be the root of forward change over there. Maybe this thread hijack will help you see that your presence over there has more value than you previously might have realized. Same with others from PT and APC. They (SD) needed to get out of the mind-lock and start moving forward. Hopefully, that's been accomplished! Just for clarification: I'm not saying that discus have, need or should be kept in planted tanks--the situation went way beyond that. But I'm willing to assume that if any major changes have occurred at SD that planted tank folks have had an effect, taken plenty of other info over there and broken through.......That would be a Good thing!

Originally Posted by tacks

I can see that you certainly know your plants as I have read a lot of yor post, when I am in doubt I will make sure I search you out. Ed

Thank You, Ed. I try. I definitely get it wrong sometimes, but I try to turn those into learning experiences! I'm still left scratching my head all the time. Seems like nothing is written in stone in this universe!

[AquaShrimp]

Amazing! I'm doing this and it helps! Keep up the good work!

[reddragon1977]

Excel is the best thing that has ever happened to my aquarium.

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by cc_woman

Can't believe this hasn't been suggested. If your fish can/prefer softer water/lower PH... then lower the PH to raise the values of the C02 in your tank rather than cranking the C02 to high and maybe killing your fish. Of course to combat the BBA's and other algae. Here is a URL to calculate the values: http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm
IE we have 'Discus' and 'Angelfish' etc. but in very hard water, our PH (unmanipulated) was 7.6 that equals about 9 ppm, way too low to combat the bullshit, bastardly BBA; in hard water (KH being about 12 or 224 ppm). We have two pretty descent hagen DIY - bubble ladders in our 92 Gal., but still cannot achieve the required C02 levels. So now, & also in favoring our specific fish (soft water favoring fish), without raising C02 levels, which if too high over 30ppm can kill your fish pretty quick in many occasions, we have achieved the adequate level of 30ppm. This is a more ideal and safer method if your fish prefer soft water; and a lower PH only! Use something like proper PH to adjust and maintain the levels, the liquid fomula is best, as the powdered can cloud your water. Be sure to follow the directions as a drastic change in PH can be detrimental aswell. We have also used the excel dip method, and excel daily doses with success, the algae is changing colors and dying now, begone damnable algae. Hope this helps

You need to sit down and test a glass of water and see how much CO2 it has with KH = 0, KH4 and a KH of 12.

Allow them to sit out for 48 hours.
Then measure the CO2.

They will all have the EXACT SAME CO2 ppm.
You do not get "free extra CO2" via softening the water.

Adding other buffers/pH adjusters does not add CO2 gas.

This is common sense. The partial pressure of pCO2 is the same in the air, and thus at equilibrium, REGARDLESS of the KH, will always be the same.

When we add CO2 entrichment, the KH stays the same as well.
The only things that do change are the pH(goes down) and the CO2 ppms.

Now if you want to add more CO2 gas, then do that!
It's painfully obvious.

No amount of pH adjuster(other than CO2 gas) will add more CO2 gas.
Why is this an issue?
It's as straight forward as it gets

You do not get free CO2 with softer KH's(GH has no effect on pH or CO2).
There's no back door sneaky way around it.

Now the harder water has more total carbon, the sum total of the KH (mostly bicarb- HCO3) and the CO2, but the CO2 content at equilibrium should always be the same(unless you add CO2 gas or remove it etc).

Simply because someone cannot use the CO2 correctly does not imply the method is at fault. It's our fault if we fail there.
2 little CO2 DIY ladders on a 92 gal tank is hardly effective method for adding CO2.

Rather than trying to fix a mistake with yet another method, why not focus on the original issue?

As far as 30ppm and discus and angels and pH changes: here's some practical personal experience on a tank I did:
Altums and the biggest discus I've seen:


1600 gallon's worth.
pH changes (drops) 1.2 units when the lights come on and rises 1.2 units when it's off due to CO2 enrichment. Several of the other (P. scalare) angels and tetras lay eggs as have the discus.

If they are impacted, we ain't seeing it.
Go back and see if you can prove to yourself that you do not somehow magically get free CO2 with lowering the KH.

It'd be for your own benefit.
It's also a rather common mistake folks have with planted tanks and Hardness.

As far as pH changes: CO2 gas is not a salt. Adding lots of baking soda (Sodium bicarbonate), a salt, by a full pH unit rapidly will kill your fish.

Since few folks monitor pH and CO2 gas enrichment outside of the planted hobby, the general advice is more for KH changes, not CO2 gas pH related changes. CO2 and KH are different and have different effects for different reasons, they are not equivalent.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[White Worm]

Great thread! I learned alot about algae and excell. Now I'm on to looking at the H202 theory. As far as the different sites, SD has its place for sure. When you want plant advice, go to a plant forum. When you want advice concerning discus, go to a discus forum. Thats what I do. To be more specific, overall, SD members mainly comment on not putting young discus into planted tanks because of their possible slowed growth. Many have done it and for some it worked.... for some it didnt.... for some, they just dont know the difference. It justs creates a possibly more difficult time with keeping discus healthy. It is also a good idea to get one thing down before you do both at once. Plants are one thing and discus are another. As far as older or adult discus go, they are always suggested as a beautiful addition to the planted tank world. JMO. As far as DAAH....thats another story

Question -
When you dose Excel for BBA do you always spot treat it, or can you just drop the capfulls into the tank?

[mott]

Spot treating is the way to go, be careful though od too much and you can wipe out the live stock in your tank.

Originally Posted by mott

Spot treating is the way to go, be careful though od too much and you can wipe out the live stock in your tank.

I did five capfuls for a 50 gallon. is that good. It said you could use 2 time that amount, right?

[tlef316]

having a small outbreak of bba right now. I really dont want to go to pressurized CO2, so I'm gonna try excel. I do have some valis that could suffer, but i'll watch it closely. The bba is affeting my anubias, 3 of my sword plants and a few pieces of my hardscape. I cut off most of the leaves with it (will remove the rest on saturday. It's on 4 or 5 leaves on my rubin sword, which i'm not happy about) I dumped in 8 capfulls last night (75 gallon tank) Hoping for the best.

[sWozzi3]

Originally Posted by rick4him

I did five capfuls for a 50 gallon. is that good. It said you could use 2 time that amount, right?

Initial dose as stated on the bottle

Then 2.5x - 3x the dose stated on the bottle preferably squirted directly onto the most effected area whilst still in the tank.

No more than 2x dose if you have shrimp

Dose at night so the light doesn't breakdown the excel

Up CO2 to at least 30ppm

Im no expert but did it with some success a few years back, squirting it onto effected areas killed it within a few days, I had some on my filterbox, squirting that not only killed it but left a huge mark on the filterbox where no algae would grow for months after!

Ive not gotten BBA for years now, I used to get it alot but I am fairly sure it was due to lots of phospate and/or the pH being too low (6.5).

[Complexity]

I read this entire thread a couple of months ago when I first got BBA. I'm at the point that I want to dose the entire tank as it seems if I get rid of it in one place, it just pops up somewhere else. With no power, thus no CO2, for over a week, I just noticed little tufts in various places in my tank. It's beginning to grow everywhere.

I have amano shrimp. LOTS of them.

I intend to squirt it directly on the spots when I treat it. I'll treat it just before lights out. UV sterilizer turned off. I'll keep my 2 large canister filters running.

I read at the very beginning of this thread that someone used 25ml in his 75g tank for 2 weeks. I've read all the suggestions of how much to dose to the point my head is spinning.

Does anyone see a problem with dosing 25ml each night, squirting it directly on the BBA, until all signs of BBA are finally gone? Since I have my pressurized CO2 cranked up as far as my fish will allow, I'm hoping that once I get rid of the BBA with Excel, my tank conditions will prevent it from coming back.

25ml of Excel every night at lights out and filters running for 10-14 days straight (weekly 50% water changes) okay for a 75g tank with amano shrimp?

[Hilde]

I read at another forum BBA Thrives in situations of high phosphates and low nitrates. Nitrate needs to be maintained at 20-30ppm. Also if BBA is turning red it is dieing. If a lot dies off it becomes toxic and a water change has to be done.

If this is wrong let me know.

[Complexity]

Not sure about the nutrients being the issue as i've generally understood it being tied to fluctuating CO2. This fits because I had knocked the BBA back quite a bit, only to have it spread while my power was out which caused my tank to be void of CO2. It also appears light related, as is true with most algae.

I read the bottle again, and realized that 25ml was less than even the initial dose it recommends. It says 5ml per 10 gallon. So for a 75g tank, that would mean around 38ml (5/10 = .5ml per gallon) so (.5 * 75 = 37.5ml).

I ended up dosing probably 45ml last night. No change so far, but it's only one night.

I think I'll just play it by ear with watching how my plants, fish and the BBA respond to dosing 40ml each night. The most sensitive will be my vals and amanos. So if I see a decline in either, that should indicate that I need to lower my dosage.

I'm also going to see if I can bump up my injected CO2 even a tiny notch without stressing the fish. I want this BBA gone by the time I need to move my tank which is only a few weeks from now.