Excel as a treatment for BBA? Experiences?

[DarkCobra]

Originally Posted by m.lemay

Unlike The Hydrogen peroxide treatment, excel can be left in the tank to continue performing it's magic.

On that I disagree.

H2O2 can also be dosed like Excel usually is - directly into the water column and left there. I have done it, and in my experience the effects are identical in every respect to what everyone here is describing from Excel overdoses.

But people don't use H2O2 for a water column treatment - just like people don't use Excel for spot treatments. Why not? It's not because it doesn't work. It's only because not enough people have tried and reported on these usages for them to enter the mainstream.

I have made several posts on this forum detailing the use of H2O2 as a spot treatment or as a plant dip. I was planning on also performing some controlled experiments using H2O2 as a water-column treatment and posting results.

That was before I found this thread and the algicidal properties of Excel. Why has my interest in H2O2 waned?

First, although it's too early to tell for sure, Excel appears effective as an in-tank spot treatment - an area in which H2O2 was previously unchallenged. I'll bet anyone a steak dinner that in the end, it will prove equally effective.

Second, breakdown of H2O2 produces water and oxygen, which we don't really need; but breakdown of gluteraldehyde (Excel) produces water and CO2, which is useful to plants.

Third is the mechanism by which it kills. H2O2 is a clearly an oxidant. Gluteralehyde is not as well understood, but is generally believed to work by crosslinking proteins. This is an important difference. H2O2 could potentially oxidize and remove nutrients from the water column; whereas Excel could not, because none of the nutrients are protein-based.

With that in mind, it may turn out that the only advantages H2O2 has over Excel is availability and price.

Keep those results coming, I think this will be a positive development for our hobby. Thank you Marcel for being the first to try it and providing detailed reports!

I'll join you as soon as I can. Some of my LFS used to carry Excel, but now that I actually want a bottle, it seems they've all stopped carrying it. Grr!

[m.lemay]

The main advantage for using Excel over H2o2 is that it's beneficial to the plants also.
H2o2s ability to kill bba is well documented but most people advocate performing a water change immediately after treatment to reduce the concentrations in the tank. What happens when H2o2 is left in the tank....I don't know, and I don't know of anyone thats tried it. H202s safety to plants and fish is questionable. Many here havetried the excel overdose method with great success with a few losses but we know what those are.

But the thing that excites me the most about using Excel is that the plants just look better and healthier when I use it.

Here's a pic. The smallrock on the left was treated with the excel spot treatment one time. The rock on the right side did not get the spot treatment but it did get the "excel overdose effect" from the residual excel in the water column. I also would like to note that the rock on the right is better than it was before treatment but still no where as dramatic an effect as with the spot treatment right next door.

[DarkCobra]

Originally Posted by m.lemay

What happens when H2o2 is left in the tank....I don't know, and I don't know of anyone thats tried it.

LOL! Am I invisible? I'm right here, I just said I've tried it! <waves frantically> Years ago, I used to dose H2O2 directly in the water column *daily* and not remove it.

Or if I'm still too much of a noob to qualify as "anyone", you could ask Tom Barr. Here he is saying he's thinking about adding H2O2 directly to his sump, and talking to someone else about adding it to an aquarium via IV drip!

Or you can search the web and Usenet and find dozens of other people who have all documented their experiences with leaving H2O2 in the tank.

The idea of doing a water change after treatment was never to remove the H2O2. It originated way back in the days when everyone agreed that excessive nutrients were the cause of algae growth, and that a water change was necessary to remove the nutrients released by the destroyed algae.

Originally Posted by m.lemay

H202s safety to plants and fish is questionable.

No more so than formaldehyde, which is what the active ingredient of Excel essentially is. Strange how you can package the stuff as a plant fertilizer and everyone loves it, but if you package it as a medication (Formalin) it's suddenly an evil chemical that you should use with utmost caution.

The dose makes the poison. Both H2O2 and Excel will kill every living thing in your tank at too high a dose. Both will do nothing at too low a dose. Both have the potential to selectively kill algae at just the right dose.

My point is this. If you bias yourself to one treatment and reject the other without educating yourself, you're only depriving yourself of a valuable source of information which can be applied to *both*. Had I done so, I wouldn't have made the connection, come here, and suggested using Excel as a spot treatment. You're welcome for the idea, btw.

[m.lemay]

Whats all the hostility dude.

Sorry I missed that part in your post that you routinely left h2o2 in your tank. All the info that I've read regarding H2o2 suggests performing a water change after the treatment, which BTW has nothing to do with excess nutrients, but it has everything to do with removing the h202. The article was written fairly recently by GPODIO, I'll see if I can find it. http://www.gpodio.com/h2o2.aspYou obviously have way more experience with h2o2 than I.

This particular thread isn't about H2o2, its about the use of excel.

There's a thread on this board about the use of h2o2 for BBA removal. That thread is here:http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...light=peroxide Perhaps you could add to the knowledge base about h2o2 over there.

[DarkCobra]

Originally Posted by m.lemay

Whats all the hostility dude.

My apologies.

Originally Posted by m.lemay

This particular thread isn't about H2o2, its about the use of excel.

I know. Wasn't trying to hijack the thread, just comparing and contrasting the two treatments. A good idea for using Excel came out of it, maybe there's more. But since you feel this is outside the scope of this thread, if I have anything else to add I'll post it elsewhere.

[[RK]]

Im on day 7 of my treatment and the BBA is practically gone. Hair algae is disppearing too. The bits that are left are the dead clumps. Most on my java moss and hairgrass. which i cant pull out or i'll damage the plants. i cant believe how beneficial Excel is. Even GSA is much lower than usual. I wonder what will happen once i stop the overdosing. Does anyone dose excel regularly even though they have pressurised Co2?

[EricSilver]

Originally Posted by [RK]

I wonder what will happen once i stop the overdosing.

Unless you eliminate the conditions that enabled the algae to occur, it will return after you stop overdosing. There is no way to totally eradicate it, but you can reduce its population to the point of invisibility.

[BSS]

I tried the spot treatment of Excel with my WC on Monday night. FINALLY! This is the first time I've actually noticed the BBA changing color after a treatment. I'm pretty excited about it. I'm hoping now I don't need to do daily doses, just do spot treatments at every WC. Good stuff!!

Per the comment just above, I still have no clue why my BBA continues to show up. It's not really excessive, so maybe I'm just being a bit anal. Naw...that couldn't be .

[m.lemay]

Originally Posted by BSS

I tried the spot treatment of Excel with my WC on Monday night. FINALLY! This is the first time I've actually noticed the BBA changing color after a treatment. I'm pretty excited about it. I'm hoping now I don't need to do daily doses, just do spot treatments at every WC. Good stuff!!

Per the comment just above, I still have no clue why my BBA continues to show up. It's not really excessive, so maybe I'm just being a bit anal. Naw...that couldn't be .

The spot treatment works awesome. By your next treatment it'll be easy to determine the spots you missed and you'll be able to treat those areas.

I'm not sure why my bba keeps coming back either. I gotta tell ya that I'd never even seen BBA before I switched my substrate over to Eco-complete. I had flourish substrate before and I never had BBA. I wonder if there's a link. I may put up a poll. I'd be interested to hear from you guys, with BBA, on what substrate your using.

Marcel

[adamjh]

Originally Posted by m.lemay

. . . I switched my substrate over to Eco-complete. I had flourish substrate before. . .

Marcel

So what made you switch over in the first place? It seems like changing substrate would be a BIG hassel unless you had a really good reason to do it.

[Bert H]

I see folks using it as a spot treatment on their rocks and hardscape very successfully. Do you see the same results if you spot treat on leaves, etc? In other words, any damage to the plant if the algae is on the plant and spot treat that way?

[m.lemay]

Originally Posted by adamjh

So what made you switch over in the first place. It seems like changing substrate would be a BIG hassel unless you had a really good reason to do it.

I wanted a black substrate. That was really the main reason. The secondary reason was that the flourite was mixed 50/50 with gravel which was messing with my KH. The gravel had calcium carbonate mixed in which was the problem. The flourite was fine except for the color. I figured I'd kill 2 birds with one stone. It was mainly for aesthetic reasons and a stable kh.

Marcel

[BSS]

Originally Posted by Bert H

Do you see the same results if you spot treat on leaves, etc? In other words, any damage to the plant if the algae is on the plant and spot treat that way?

I was a little squirt happy with my first application, so I don't completely recall where all I sprayed it . It looks like some of my ever-ragged A. reineckii leaves didn't fair too well, but they were shoddy anyway. There are a few smallish A. nana leaves I know I sprayed, and I see little affects on them (including the algae, though I might need to give that more time!). I also sprayed another plant or two, but don't see excessive leaf die-off.

I'll be a bit more 'controlled' next time and will report back! Good question!

[trckrunrmike]

How much should I dose for a 20 gallon? And how do you measure how many mLs you have? using the cap threads?

[[RK]]

for my 24gallon i did 3 capfuls a day.

If i had the money i'd keep on doing that throughout the tanks life, cause the results are soooo good! but unfortunately Excel is pretty expensive