Ry's Mad Lab - Test for N,P,K,Ca,Mg, Fe, Zn & Cu using the Hanna HI83200 Photometer - Page 2 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #16 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-25-2015, 05:44 PM Thread Starter
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I have been keeping my micros fairly low now even before I got my photometer plus we have to take into account that the tap might have small amounts of copper which is what we are testing for. I'm actually going to run some test with bsantucci tap and my tap water to see if copper shows up.
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post #17 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-25-2015, 05:48 PM
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Curious if the tap results. Maybe something changed in my water from last year.

My tank though really seems like its not using any ferts I'm putting in.

*edit*

so I just did a check on micro dosing calculator versus the sticky. The calculator calls for 1.39g 3 times a week of CSM+B while the sticky for a 40-60g tank calls for 1/8tsp which is a dash spoon. A dash spoon ends up weighing .576g. So that is a considerable difference in dosing of micros from one recipe to another. 1.728g versus 4.17 per week of micros.

KNO3 is the same roughly spooned or measured.

Phostphate is the same oh the sticky, 1/8tsp which is .576g. The calculator calls for less, .338g. I'm guessing that is correct since they match. So this has me wondering if there is a micro toxicity in my tank causing less uptake of other nutrients. I'll dose micros at the sticky level since it's much lower and go with that for a few weeks to see how things progress in the tank.

Thoughts on this?



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Last edited by bsantucci; 10-25-2015 at 06:05 PM. Reason: testing
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post #18 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-25-2015, 05:59 PM Thread Starter
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I never used the spoons for my micros. They are inaccurate. I actually own a milligram scale so I use precise amounts based on the fert calculator values.

I'm doing the test on the tap now. If copper shows up then we can't use it as a proxy to determine micro nutrient levels unless you are running purely on RO water.

I will do a test on a 5 gallon DI/RO water and see if the calculator values are accurate.
@bsantucci: your results photo has been posted.
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post #19 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-25-2015, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by PortalMasteryRy View Post
I never used the spoons for my micros. They are inaccurate. I actually own a milligram scale so I use precise amounts based on the fert calculator values.

I'm doing the test on the tap now. If copper shows up then we can't use it as a proxy to determine micro nutrient levels unless you are running purely on RO water.

I will do a test on a 5 gallon DI/RO water and see if the calculator values are accurate.
@bsantucci: your results photo has been posted.
I switched to a milligram scale as well for accuracy, but like I said there is a HUGE differnece between the calculator and the sticky's micro amount. Which is the correct one now I am wondering?

Can you compare your calculator numbers for micro versus the sticky for your tank size out of curiosity?

_Dosing Regimes_
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post #20 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-25-2015, 06:34 PM Thread Starter
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As suspected our taps have copper in them.

My Tap was at 37 ppb or 0.037 ppm and bsantucci tap was at 44 ppm or 0.044 ppm.

Mine went lower from 0.037 to 0.029 ppm but his went from .044 to .088 ppm

If we do the math then you dosed 0.044 ppm Cu for that week assuming you did the water change. My results means I need more micros LOL since I my levels have gone down lower than the tap.

Last edited by PortalMasteryRy; 10-25-2015 at 06:36 PM. Reason: Update
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post #21 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-25-2015, 06:52 PM
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These are the negative growth patterns I've observed with my plants:

Rotala sp. "Green" has stunted for the past few months. It grows very, very slowly, slower than it has ever grew, and new growth is small and some are twisted/deformed. It's the typical complaint that you see in a lot of threads around the web.

Rotala sp. "H'ra" has recently, in the past couple of months, stunted with similar growth patterns. It used to grow much better.

Only Rotala sp. "Ceylon" displays mostly normal growth. Sometimes, the leaves grow crinkly, but mostly it grows normally.

Rotala wallichii and Ammannia pedicellata are stunted. New growth turns black and dies back. I've not been able to propagate these plants at all, still with the one original stems in the tank. R. wallichii used to grow amazingly well in another tank with almost no dosing.

Eleocharis parvula grows very slowly, almost as slowly as Lilaeopsis sps. BBA grows on its tips.

H. pinnatifida has had chronic pinholes, symptoms of K deficiency that it seemed like no amount of added K prevented. I hypothesized that the amount of micros were damaging the K+ uptake channels, inducing K deficiency.

Edit:
Ludwigia ovalis and L. repens X L. arcuata both recently had slight curling, deformed new growth. I can confirm this had nothing to do with CO2, macros, light or anything else other than an increase in micros and a decrease in Ca and Mg.

-----
The slow growth is very much a conundrum as plants used to grow much faster, requiring near weekly trimming over a year ago. The major dosing change is that I've increased micros, while reducing macros.

The plants that seem to do fine: Bolbitis, Anubias, Taiwan moss - seem to grow faster than before so these plants may be much more tolerant of trace elements.
Limnophila aromatica, Glosso, and some others don't seem to be affected.

About the animals, I've noticed that every time after a water change, fish and shrimp are much more active. They progressively get more sluggish as the week goes on. I suspect that the high levels of certain metals have induced chronic health issues.

I've added some of the aquarium water to my daphnia cups. This amounted to less than 1% of the total volume. However, the water caused the daphnia to produce egg sacs, a sign that the water quality is high in metals, which they are sensitive to. I've been able to consistently repeat this a couple of times so the micros definitely cause health issues.

Last edited by Solcielo lawrencia; 10-25-2015 at 07:16 PM. Reason: Added info
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post #22 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-25-2015, 07:15 PM
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I've had the same issues in rotala colorata which should grow easily. I think you and I are both into a micro toxicity from the dosing. I'm switching to the spoon measurement as I mentioned above for micros since that is the only difference and that is the only thing I too have changed in the last few months.

My tank is showing stunting and slow growth in rotala colorata, Ludwigia red, Ludwigia Cuba.

The copper in my water is a bit upsetting. Not much I can do about it though. I don't have the space or time to do ro di.

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post #23 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-26-2015, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsantucci View Post
so I just did a check on micro dosing calculator versus the sticky. The calculator calls for 1.39g 3 times a week of CSM+B while the sticky for a 40-60g tank calls for 1/8tsp which is a dash spoon. A dash spoon ends up weighing .576g. So that is a considerable difference in dosing of micros from one recipe to another. 1.728g versus 4.17 per week of micros.
Which calculator did you use? If it's RotalaButterfly, there was an issue with the output of CSM+B and some other nutrients giving nearly double the suggested amounts. So use the old YANC for the output which is correct.
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post #24 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-26-2015, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Solcielo lawrencia View Post
Which calculator did you use? If it's RotalaButterfly, there was an issue with the output of CSM+B and some other nutrients giving nearly double the suggested amounts. So use the old YANC for the output which is correct.
Yeah I was using rotala butterfly. I checked yanc on that site and it does say to use 1g versus 1.39g. That's still a long ways off from 1/8 tsp though. So I'm still wondering which is right?

Is there another yanc I should be using?

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post #25 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-26-2015, 05:01 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcielo lawrencia View Post
Which calculator did you use? If it's RotalaButterfly, there was an issue with the output of CSM+B and some other nutrients giving nearly double the suggested amounts. So use the old YANC for the output which is correct.
I try to follow the recommended EI dosing for micros but I was dosing on a daily basis. I get the amount based on the total micro dose for the week then I divide it by 7.

I do however use the calculator to find out an estimate of the nutrient I dosed and tweak accordingly. I am a bit disappointed the fert calculators could be giving incorrect results or values since I use it a lot. Well the reason I bought the photometer was I wanted to use the calculator as a guide and let the water tell me exactly what I have in terms of nutrients. The Cu results was not unexpected but it does cause some concern regarding pushing the micro nutrient dose. I'm going to bump my dose until I see the same amount of Cu from the start of the week until the end of the week to see if this helps.

I'm also going back to high K and Ca. I remember during the first 6 weeks when my plants where all having good growth until I decided to scale down the K,Ca and Micros.
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post #26 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-26-2015, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsantucci View Post
Yeah I was using rotala butterfly. I checked yanc on that site and it does say to use 1g versus 1.39g. That's still a long ways off from 1/8 tsp though. So I'm still wondering which is right?

Is there another yanc I should be using?
The output is different from what i'm getting.

If I selecte EI for 60 gallons:
YANC=1.0g
RB=1.74g

But if I select EI Daily, it's the same:
YANC=695mg
RB=696mg

But, if you dose 3.0 grams for EI, EI daily should be 3.0g/7days=428mg/day, not 695mg/day.

Okay, so there's a calculation error in YANC. If you select "the result of my dose" and input 1 gram, it gives a different output, Fe=.29ppm, than if you selected EI which indicates 1 gram=.5ppm Fe. So 1 gram is calculated differently in YANC. I'll need to check if this error is repeated in RB.

Update: RB doesn't allow this option yet. We'll have to wait until the program is updated to figure it out.
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post #27 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-26-2015, 10:09 PM Thread Starter
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I know the dosage is different for the tank but what nutrient levels is it suppose to yield. AKA the B, Fe, Mn, Cu, etc??? Or what nutrient levels do you go for?

I guess to keep it simple and rule out dosing amounts is what is the total micro nutrient levels you guys try to dose for the entire week?

This is the one I was running before:

B 0.0779
Cu 0.0088
Fe 0.6355
Mg 0.1363
Mn 0.1820
Mo 0.0049
Zn 0.0360
dGH 0.0312


This is the one that I ran with for the last two weeks. With extra .1 ppm from Fe Gluconate every day (Seachem iron)

Element ppm/degree
B 0.0306
Cu 0.0034
Fe 0.2497
Mg 0.0535
Mn 0.0715
Mo 0.0019
Zn 0.0141
dGH 0.0123

This is a total of 550 mg with 200 mg added after water change for my tank of 40 gallons(w/ 38 as my total tank volume). The rest of the 350 mg is dosed everyday using a dosing pump.

This one still did not solve my issues with my H.sunset. The leaves still curl upward.

I do remember adding more Manganese to the CSM+B mix to replicate the Tropica grow micro (from another thread). Maybe I added too much LOL.

Last edited by PortalMasteryRy; 10-26-2015 at 10:11 PM. Reason: update
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post #28 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-26-2015, 10:21 PM
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With all these questions on the calcs I'm going to dose by spoons for a few weeks as noted in the sticky here. I'm positive my micros are overdosed as Ry shows from the results.

That being said I'm going to also dose my tank for 20-40g levels even though I have a 48g. I'm sure with substrate and rocks my water is closer to 40g. So we'll see how that works out over the next few weeks.

I'd like to keep updating here though since we all seem to be in a similar boat.

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post #29 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-26-2015, 10:30 PM
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I aimed for 0.10-0.12ppm of Fe daily. At the end of the week, total Fe is under 0.9ppm so all other metals are relative to this. After 50% WC, that drops to 0.4ppm. Add another 0.9ppm for the week and that results in 1.3ppm total. 50% WC=0.6ppm. +0.9=1.5ppm. 75% WC=0.4ppm, which is close to the tested water sample. If the concentration is accurate, then that means plants use a lot less iron than EI levels indicate. Almost none. It also indicates that the iron chelator (EDTA) lasts a lot longer than 3 days, since you tested my water after a couple of weeks. Does the test also detect precipitated iron?

Also, my substrate is Floramax/Ecocomplete, unlike Aquasoil which quickly adsorbs ions, so these metals probably stay in solution a lot longer.
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post #30 of 46 (permalink) Old 10-26-2015, 11:59 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsantucci View Post
With all these questions on the calcs I'm going to dose by spoons for a few weeks as noted in the sticky here. I'm positive my micros are overdosed as Ry shows from the results.

That being said I'm going to also dose my tank for 20-40g levels even though I have a 48g. I'm sure with substrate and rocks my water is closer to 40g. So we'll see how that works out over the next few weeks.

I'd like to keep updating here though since we all seem to be in a similar boat.

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Yeah your photos look very close to what I had in my tank but I knew I overdosed my micros because my iron hit 3.5 ppm before the WC and I kept a .1 ppm Fe to a .01 Boron ratio so my boron was at .35ppm.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcielo lawrencia View Post
I aimed for 0.10-0.12ppm of Fe daily. At the end of the week, total Fe is under 0.9ppm so all other metals are relative to this. After 50% WC, that drops to 0.4ppm. Add another 0.9ppm for the week and that results in 1.3ppm total. 50% WC=0.6ppm. +0.9=1.5ppm. 75% WC=0.4ppm, which is close to the tested water sample. If the concentration is accurate, then that means plants use a lot less iron than EI levels indicate. Almost none. It also indicates that the iron chelator (EDTA) lasts a lot longer than 3 days, since you tested my water after a couple of weeks. Does the test also detect precipitated iron?

Also, my substrate is Floramax/Ecocomplete, unlike Aquasoil which quickly adsorbs ions, so these metals probably stay in solution a lot longer.

I'm not sure if it will detect precipated iron. I'll dose some phosphate and DTPA iron in a 5 gallon container and set it to 9 ppm iron and 9 ppm phosphate and see if the iron levels are still readable in the test. I still have some small amount of sample water from your 9/27 sample. I'll test the iron again after a week and if the iron level goes down it means the test does not detect the iron after it "degrades"??? Is that even the term for it. That should also give us a clue how stable the metal is in the water column.

I was dosing pretty close to your levels except my Micro has additional Manganese Sulfate and 10% DTPA iron. I set my mix to yield .1 ppm Fe to .01 Boron so it was easy to determine an estimate of my Boron levels that I dosed.
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