Co2 Help - Page 3 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #31 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-04-2013, 06:27 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the advice.
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post #32 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-04-2013, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherHobby View Post
I'd get one with a better needle valve. Because it's a single stage regulator, that model would be susceptible to end of tank dumps — when your CO2 tank gets low, it can dump the rest of the gas into your tank quickly and gas your fish. Not that it will absolutely happen, but it can, and it's preventable by stepping up to their ultimate for $30 more, which you'll see "No end-of-tank dumps" under the needle valve description. That claim is not made on the cheaper model. If you go with the cheaper one, just watch your CO2 pressure closely, and fill it before it's empty.
I just want to clarify some miss-information here.

NO NEEDLE VALVE WILL PREVENT AN END OF TANK DUMP.

The EOTD is more of a problem with older/outdated/just plain crappy regulators. The fear of killing fish and the unwillingness of folks wanting to learn have only made this urban legend worse.

What we hear about from time to time here on the forum is that someone's Milwaukee or other cheap, Chinese made reg dumped and wiped out their tank while they were at work or something.

What really happened is rise and decay. It happens to all regs in some degree but the problem is worse in some. In a nut shell, the regulator failed deal with the sudden rise in output pressure as the tank emptied. I think the problem is also compounded by the crap needle valve sometimes being 'floaty'. Anyway... more output pressure = more gas going into the aquarium without an adjustment to the flow rate from the needle valve.

What a good reg does is hold it's working pressure. What a good needle does is let you adjust the flow rate easily and stays where you put it.

[/rant]
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post #33 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-05-2013, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldpunk78 View Post
I just want to clarify some miss-information here.

NO NEEDLE VALVE WILL PREVENT AN END OF TANK DUMP.

The EOTD is more of a problem with older/outdated/just plain crappy regulators. The fear of killing fish and the unwillingness of folks wanting to learn have only made this urban legend worse.

What we hear about from time to time here on the forum is that someone's Milwaukee or other cheap, Chinese made reg dumped and wiped out their tank while they were at work or something.

What really happened is rise and decay. It happens to all regs in some degree but the problem is worse in some. In a nut shell, the regulator failed deal with the sudden rise in output pressure as the tank emptied. I think the problem is also compounded by the crap needle valve sometimes being 'floaty'. Anyway... more output pressure = more gas going into the aquarium without an adjustment to the flow rate from the needle valve.

What a good reg does is hold it's working pressure. What a good needle does is let you adjust the flow rate easily and stays where you put it.

[/rant]
Amen

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post #34 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-05-2013, 12:21 AM
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For your price range skip the gla and build one. Get with btail and oldpunk and have them put one together for you or help you build one. I am almost done and I will be under 200$ for a nice dual stage rebranded chrome concoa regulator clippard mouse solenoid and a real nice paker metering valve. All stainless steel


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post #35 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-05-2013, 12:31 AM
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I agree, do the reading and research. Most of which is right here on TPT, just use the advanced search.

I'm in the process of building one as well, I'm not a handy guy, but I'm going to know how it works and I have a way better understanding of the whole 'CO2' thing than I would otherwise.
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post #36 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-05-2013, 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldpunk78 View Post
I just want to clarify some miss-information here.

NO NEEDLE VALVE WILL PREVENT AN END OF TANK DUMP.

The EOTD is more of a problem with older/outdated/just plain crappy regulators. The fear of killing fish and the unwillingness of folks wanting to learn have only made this urban legend worse.

What we hear about from time to time here on the forum is that someone's Milwaukee or other cheap, Chinese made reg dumped and wiped out their tank while they were at work or something.

What really happened is rise and decay. It happens to all regs in some degree but the problem is worse in some. In a nut shell, the regulator failed deal with the sudden rise in output pressure as the tank emptied. I think the problem is also compounded by the crap needle valve sometimes being 'floaty'. Anyway... more output pressure = more gas going into the aquarium without an adjustment to the flow rate from the needle valve.

What a good reg does is hold it's working pressure. What a good needle does is let you adjust the flow rate easily and stays where you put it.

[/rant]
This is good to know. I think it's very confusing then for GLA to advertise their product in a way that leads you to believe otherwise. If the only difference between those two models is the needle valve, then WHY do they state on one of them, specifically under the needle valve specs, that it won't do EOTD?

I was going off that since GLA seems to have some respect here. Sorry for spreading that misinformation.
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post #37 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-05-2013, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by AnotherHobby View Post
This is good to know. I think it's very confusing then for GLA to advertise their product in a way that leads you to believe otherwise. If the only difference between those two models is the needle valve, then WHY do they state on one of them, specifically under the needle valve specs, that it won't do EOTD?

I was going off that since GLA seems to have some respect here. Sorry for spreading that misinformation.
We all live and learn

Orlando (gla) knows better, it's just a sales pitch that plays off of peoples fears. He should update that..
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post #38 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-05-2013, 01:01 AM
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We all live and learn

Orlando (gla) knows better, it's just a sales pitch that plays off of peoples fears. He should update that..
So this leads to another question, is it a better/modern single stage regulator that will not EOTD and he just adds that in as a bonus to help sell the better needle valve, or are they still susceptible to EOTD since they are single stage?
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post #39 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-05-2013, 03:00 AM
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Quote:
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So this leads to another question, is it a better/modern single stage regulator that will not EOTD and he just adds that in as a bonus to help sell the better needle valve, or are they still susceptible to EOTD since they are single stage?
It is call “output pressure rise", all single stage regulator have output pressure rise when the input pressure drop.
Good quality single stage regulators have less OPR than the low quality, for example, the Victor and Airproducts SSR have less than 0.1 psi rise for every 100 psi input pressure drop, so excess co2 injection when the co2 near end is really a small digit.
low quality SSR sometimes have OPR more than 0.5psi per 100 psi input pressure drop, it is troublesome because if initial output pressure is low, the total OPR is a fairly big fraction, means more excess co2 injection.

for example, if you set the output pressure at 20 psi, on low quality SSR, the total OPR is 4 psi(0.5*8), makes the actual output pressure at 24 psi, about 20% pressure increase. The actual excess co2 injection volume calculation is complicated, but you will have good idea excess co2 volume is proportional to that the total OPR, higher the OPR, more excess co2 injection.

there are ways to avoid large amount of excess co2 injection, first, a good quality SSR with low OPR. Second, up the initial output pressure, the total OPR is a small percentage compare to the initial output pressure.
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post #40 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-05-2013, 03:16 AM
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needle valve with small orifice(high precision), do help to limit the excess co2 injection, but it is a combination of other factors, and the main character is the pressure differential, which is total OPR

the flow rate formula have pressure differential, volume, flow coefficient, orifice size, fluid density.
it is a combination to calculate the co2 flow mass, and between all these, a needle valve decide the orifice size, large or small makes a different(small orifice, means small flow coefficient and less excess co2 injection for certain pressure rise).
The output pressure rise still plays a big role though.
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