The Planted Tank Forum banner

Paintball Co2 system questions

10K views 53 replies 5 participants last post by  Hilde 
#1 · (Edited)
Anybody here ever use a Regulator CGA 320 Inlet - WRFCO2 or something similar to it? Experience with it?
 
#2 ·
Hi Hilde,

A regulator CGA 320 inlet deals with the connection between the CO2 tank and the regulator body. It usually consists of a 'stem' where one end is threaded and goes into the regulator body and the other end is a pressure fit against the output of the industrial type CO2 tank with a threaded nut that holds the 'stem' tightly against the tank output. Normally a washer is used between the stem and tank output to prevent leakage.

CGA 320 assembly


CGA 320 Assembly installed on regulator body (right side)
 
#8 · (Edited)
Hi Hilde,

CGA 320 fitting on your CO2 pressure regulator. It can be as inexpensive as this Taprite beverage regulator (single stage / dual valve / with CGA 320 fitting) for $57.00 (on sale) plus $11.96 shipping to GA. You would remove the valve at the bottom of the regulator body (the on/off valve) and install your 'post body' equipment (needle valve, check valve, delivery system in that order). Typically I have to take a trip to a good hardware store to find the fittings I need to connect all of the components. THIS WILL PROBABLY NOT WORK ON YOUR PAINTBALL TANK

 
#9 ·
I am the one who recommended that regulator - I've used one of them before and they are already threaded for paintball(which you've indicated in other threads that you were interested in).

It's pretty much identical - aside from not being made out of stainless - to the GLA mini regs.
 
#10 · (Edited)
I am the one who recommended that regulator
Oops! Dealing with a sinus headache I forgot whom recommended it.

The 1 am looking at is a little different. Made cheaper so won't last as long as a stainless steel regulator.

I think I have everything but the regulator. I connect the Tank > regulator > solenoid > needle valve > check valve > bubble counter. Have I got it right? No other parts?

Bought the Interstate Pneumatics CO2 Regulator after checking the reviews on Amazon. It had all 10s. I think it is perfect me, for it is in my price range and made for paintball tank.
 

Attachments

#19 · (Edited)
I got the WRCO2 regulator today. It fits my 24oz paintball tank perfectly. I have almost all of the parts I need. I am so excited. Here it is my setup for now. I have 2 needle valves. The second 1 I am using as a T valve. I am going try to find a T valve. I also need a 1/8" male to 1/4" NPT female adaptor and a coupler with 1/4" male NPT post.

I am going to try find the parts at Home Depot and then Victory hardware. If I don't find what I need locally I am going to try Amazon and evilbay. Any other suggestion as where to find the parts? Any suggestion for improvement appreciated.
 

Attachments

#20 ·
Glad that it is working out for you. Now down the road if you ever have a need for a higher end metering valve, it's not a big deal to adapt it to work with off the shelf parts. Even that home depot needle valve you have now should be a little easier to dial in at a lower working pressure.
 
#21 ·
I am not certain if it is safe to use 2 needle valves. For on a thread with DIY system using 2 needle valves Hoppy said," Two needle valves in series are not a good way to setting a stable CO2 bubble rate. A second possible problem is the stem packing leakage." If I can't find an L connector I will have to use it though.

Any thoughts on this anybody?

Bump: I changed the title of the thread, which was Regulator CGA 320 Inlet - WRFCO2, for we are longer discussing it.
 
#22 ·
There is no reason to use two needle valves(it actually might make your system more difficult to control). Just pick whichever valve is easier to dial in to your desired bubble count. Also in your picture, you have your needle valve before the solenoid.

Most agree that the best way to configure this is: Regulator---->Solenoid---->Needle valve
 
#23 · (Edited)
There is no reason to use two needle valves(it actually might make your system more difficult to control).

Most agree that the best way to configure this is: Regulator---->Solenoid---->Needle valve
Yes I also agree that 2 needle valves is not wise. The second needle valve works as an L joint and connector for bubble counter with check valve. I want to find something else to take its place. Not certain what to replace it with.

I basically am doing Regulator----> Solenoid----> Needle valve. I have Regulator > 1/4 NPT coupler male > 1/4 NPT female 1/8 NPT male adaptor > Solenoid > 1/8 NPT male 1/4 NPT female adaptor> needle valve > ? (1/8 NPT female 1/4female adaptor > needle valve) > Bubble counter. This my setup from a DIY citric system

I may be making this more complicated than necessary. Perhaps best to take the larger needle valve off. I tried screwing the small silver needle valve, which I can put the bubble counter, on to the solenoid. It does not screw in well. I was able to connect the other small brass needle valve to the solenoid. I am not certain that it is wise to use it. It's PSI is 400.

In the picture I am missing the couple form the regulator to the adaptor. Haven't found it yet.
 

Attachments

#26 · (Edited)
Last year I put together Paintball Co2 flow regulated system. I was scared to use it without a pressure regulator. Then I started thinking about putting a Co2 system together again. To get a pressurized Co2 system together I only needed a pressure regulator. Found 1 for $57. Calculating my over all cost for the paintball system I came to the conclusion that it is not much cheaper that a regular pressurized system. Another DIY project that would have been better buying new. I feel safer using a paintball tank with a pressure regulator, though. True I could have gotten an aquatek regulator with a solenoid but I found that is not always stable. This is embarrassing but should be helpful to newbies wanting to DIY.

COST
Swagelok Adapter 1/4FIP x 1/8NPT --- 9.48
PIC Needle Valve ¼ NPT ----------------15.67
Solenoid ------------------------------------- 13.99
CO2 Regulator WRCO2 ---------------- 57.34
Subtotal --------------------------------------------- 96.48
Empire Paintball 24oz ------------------- 27.70
Hose Barb ---------------------------------- 1.05
Adaptors to run hose vertical ---------- 11.35
Thread Tape ------------------------------- 1.05
Silicone Airline Tubing ------------------ 3.70
Steel Check Valve ----------------------- 5.59
CO2 Bubble Counter ------------------- 5.50
Subtotal ------------------------------------------- 55.94
Total ----------------------------------------------- 152.42
 
#27 ·
Last year I put together Paintball Co2 flow regulated system. I was scared to use it without a pressure regulator. Then I started thinking about putting a Co2 system together again. To get a pressurized Co2 system together I only needed a pressure regulator. Found 1 for $57. Calculating my over all cost for the paintball system I came to the conclusion that it is not much cheaper that a regular pressurized system. Another DIY project that would have been better buying new. I feel safer using a paintball tank and Swagelok needle valve, though. True I could have gotten an aquatek regulator with a solenoid but I felt it would not be reliable.
This is embarrassing but should be helpful to newbies wanting to DIY.

COST
Swagelok Adapter 1/4FIP x 1/8NPT --- 9.48
Swag. B-1VS4 Needle Valve ----------- 16.50
Solenoid ------------------------------------- 13.99
CO2 Regulator WRCO2 ---------------- 57.34
Subtotal --------------------------------------------- 97.31
Empire Paintball 24oz ------------------- 27.70
Hose Barb ---------------------------------- 1.05
Adaptors to run hose vertical ---------- 11.35
Thread Tape ------------------------------- 1.05
Silicone Airline Tubing ------------------ 3.70
Steel Check Valve ----------------------- 5.59
CO2 Bubble Counter ------------------- 5.50
Subtotal ------------------------------------------- 55.94
Total ----------------------------------------------- 153.25
Thank you for the cost breakdown! Can you elaborate on the specific solenoid and bubble counter you're using (and sources)? Those are very low prices for those components. There's also (theoretically) a whole lot of room for improvement in the needle valve department, but if it works, it works. Can you report on how easy or difficult it is to tweak the bubble count at a specific pressure? Thanks!
 
#29 ·
Standard mounted bubble counters are usually in the $15 range, so I was wondering if you'd found a good source for them, or if you're using an inline bc. And suitable Evilbay solenoids at reasonable prices are always in high demand. Solenoids are often either too-high wattage (so they overheat with continuous use, which is not what most types are designed for), or they're mounted (which requires a mount, and possibly adapters for odd port sizes) which requires an additional purchase, or they've got tiny ports, so mounting them is a fragile endeavor, although inline is always an option. Or they're just too expensive.

As far as needle valves go, there's a metering valve thread that lists a whole bunch of options. The "1" series valve you're using is not designed for really precise changes in flow, but, as I said, if it works, it works. I don't know if it's better, worse, or similar to the flow rates of the valve type that comes with the standard prefab regulator units (Milwaukee, Azoo, Aquatek, etc.). I haven't tested the "1" series. I have, however, tested a bunch of other models, all of which, on paper at least, are more precise than the "1" series. Those include the S, M, BMG, 31, and 21/22 series metering valves (all Swagelok). I'm not saying you can't use the valve you have. I'm saying that, on paper, it's not as suitable to our purpose as several other Swagelok valves, as well as a number of valves from other manufacturers. *BUT* if it does work reasonably well, then it's definitely something to consider for others who are looking to build their own systems, regardless of what spec sheets might suggest. And it's generally a good bit cheaper than other models. So I hope you'll post your experience.
 
#30 ·
Standard mounted bubble counters are usually in the $15 range
I have 1 that cost $14. It has check valve in it. Not certain if will use it yet. For if I use it it will be under the tank. The plastic 1 I could mount on the side of the tank.
Solenoids are often either too-high wattage (so they overheat with continuous use), or they've got tiny ports, so mounting them is a fragile endeavor, although inline is always an option.
It is a 12 w solenoid. The ports are small thus using plastic adaptors.
As far as needle valves go, there's a metering valve thread that lists a whole bunch of options. The "1" series valve you're using is not designed for really precise changes in flow.
Well I am still in the learning phase. The 1st needle valve I ordered had the wrong ends. It is a B_1VS4. I have the needle valve that is on the Aquateck. If the 1 in the pic doesn't work I will use it. Some other 1s near my price range are Fabco NV5518 and Parker 338 Series B. Thoughts on those?

When I get to the project I don't know. My pleurisy is acting up causing me to be short of breath. Don't feel it is safe to deal with the project till I feel better. I don't want to have to stop in the middle of putting the parts on.

You seem to be very knowledgeable about these parts. Am I right to assume you have put a pressurized Co2 system together? Do you have a thread on it? Last I estimated cost of pressurized Co2 system is came up with $200. Was I right?
 
#32 ·
The solenoid you have, if it's 12 watts, won't work, at least not for long. That's in theory, as I've never tried using anything that high power. 4 watts is generally as high as people will recommend, outside of the standard Burkert, which I think is a bit higher. The problem is that the high wattage solenoids either aren't designed for continuous use, or they rely on a cooling mechanism. The high flow of compressed gas would do it, but we don't deal in flow rates high enough to do any good. You can try it, but I suspect it will get extremely hot and then burn out (or melt).

The NV-55 is a solid valve. Shipping is a bit high from Fabco, but still worth it. The NV-55-18 has 1/8" NPT ports, and the NV-55 (no -18 at the end) has 10-32 ports, which are much smaller. If you want to mount it directly, go with the -18, and if you'll run it inline, you can save something like $12 and go with the standard model, but you'll need hose barbs or push fittings. Swagelok S and M (newer design) series are the best that Swagelok makes, but their stock handles are tiny, so an added vernier handle greatly improves control. SMC and Pneumadyne have a couple of cheap models that are apparently workable, though not great. Caution: I know of only the one thread of a person who's used the AS-1000 valve, and there was no follow-up on the final comment. But its predecessor, the AS-1200, was workable, so the AS-1000 should be fine. Just super duper tiny. Bettatail claimed he'd tested the AS-1000 and said it was better than the 1200, but I don't know of any build threads he had using one. Again, I don't think it will be especially good, but should work for you. Parker and Brooks make some extremely low flow valves, but they're usually really expensive ($100+). I'd still recommend the NV-55 with barbs or push fittings to run it inline, given the paintball tank and small regulator. Any valve can be run inline with the correct fittings, but many are a bit heavy. The NV-55-18 is much heavier than the NV-55 as well.

Yes, $200 is usually what I guesstimate for a basic, solid CO2 rig the first time around. With practice, they get better and cheaper. I don't have any build threads, but I've built a good handful. I'm really picky about my valves, and I've found some good deals on Evilbay over the years, so I tend to use really low-flow metering valves. I like the Clippard Mouse mounted solenoids, as they're super low wattage (less than 1W) and small. There are a handful of other companies that make similar valves, and will usually fit on the same mounts, but you'll have to surf Evilbay to find them at decent prices, and mounts are rarely found there.
 
#33 ·
The solenoid you have, if it's 12 watts, won't work. The problem is that the high wattage solenoids either aren't designed for continuous use. I suspect it will get extremely hot and then burn out (or melt).
I tried it on the DIY citric system. It seemed to get hot.

Seems the cheapest route to make this safe is to get a good flow meter and let it run continuously. Paintball Co2 system at this thread run 24/7. Running at low bps it still last a long time. I would start it in tank without fish.
 
#35 ·
Maybe. I think I'd try the valve in the pic first. Then the DIY valve.

I'm not sure how running it continuously would make it safer, but some people go that route. I'd be concerned that a paintball cylinder has little enough gas in it to begin with, and refilling is going to get obnoxious.
 
#36 · (Edited)
Maybe. I think I'd try the valve in the pic first. Then the DIY valve.

I'm not sure how running it continuously would make it safer, but some people go that route.
I am liking the PIC more than the others too. Perhaps may run the 2 needle valves like haril did here using the DIY needle valve.

I think it is safer to run it continuously than to use a cheap solenoid that runs hot. After rereading Jaggedfury's thread on Paintball Co2 system, I am thinking if I lower it to 1bps it will last longer. I may buy another paintball tank. Next year will look for a solenoid.

Here reading Metering/needle vales, Cv (flow coefficient) under 0.1. What is the highest Cv for paintball Co2 system?
 
#38 ·
Ah, okay I understand the always-on idea now. Yes, if you removed the solenoid, you wouldn't have the danger of overheating. I was thinking you were going to just leave it plugged in all the time.

Cv isn't a standard you can use to compare valves all that well. Generally speaking, the lower the Cv of a valve, the more precise the valve will be, and the easier it will be to control the flow. But there are a handful of other variables that also impact flow, so while Cv isn't meaningless, it's only one of many variables. But yes, it would be unlikely to have any decent control with a valve whose Cv is over 0.1, and far less than that would be better. As paintball versus industrial cylinder go, the only practical differences are thread type and total volume. Pressure is the same.

Calculating output without actually testing would be incredibly difficult. You're welcome to try, and I wish you success, but it's not something I would ever want to try. Data sheets for the valves you're looking into will have more information, often the Cv, but sometimes only flow at a specific pressure based on the number of knob turns. And none of that will apply perfectly for our purposes.

Using two needle valves won't help. Either the first or second valve becomes useless, depending on which is open more.
 
#39 ·
Cv isn't a standard you can use to compare valves all that well. Generally speaking, the lower the Cv of a valve, the more precise the valve will be, and the easier it will be to control the flow.
I was just wonder how to figure out the right needle valve to use.
Using two needle valves won't help. Either the first or second valve becomes useless, depending on which is open more.
Hoping it will work with the PIP needle valve alone. Just thinking of back up plant. Haril used 2 in his setup which didn't have a regulator. He opened the Watts needle valve first and then adjusted it for the final bubble rate after closing in on the PIP needle valve. Logically I was thinking that best to adjust flow with PIP 1st and if that is not enough then adjust the watts needle flow.
 
#42 ·
You can still find some really nice dual stage regulators in the $50-100 range on Evilbay. Mostly used, but a few new.

I'm not sure there's a best way to find needle valves. If you're talking about Evilbay, you can pick a specific valve and search for that model. Or you can find a valve on Evilbay that you might be interested in, and do a search - here - for that valve and see what people say. Or you can find the spec sheet for that valve and figure out if the Cv is anywhere near what might be suitable, and look into it.
 
#43 ·
Last night I was reading how to start up the system. Now have some questions:
1 What pressure to you set the pressure regulator at?
2 How do you know when it is time to change out?
3 How do you change out the tanks?
4 Is a pressure relief valve necessary?
 
#44 ·
So what is your setup now that you plan to run? If you look into my threads I have a setup I just did that is similar to what your trying to accomplish with parts that all work well together.

1 What pressure to you set the pressure regulator at?
I normally set my pressure @ 30-40 PSI. 40 PSI should be high enough to power any aquarium co2 delivery delivery device.

2 How do you know when it is time to change out?
When your bubble counter stops putting out bubbles. Or you co2 checker if you have one goes blue vs. green or yellow. However, I always change my tanks out early so they do not get low and take the risk of end of tank dump.

3 How do you change out the tanks?
You just screw the regulator off the tank (don't stop turning especially when pressure starts releasing or you might stop at a point where the pin valve is still partially open and the tank is not sealed to the regulator). It will hiss for a second and then your done. If its totally empty is will just screw off w/ no hissing. You will want to keep spare paintball tank o-rings on hand as each time you remove the pressurized tank you will likely break or damage the o-ring. Also, I never let my tanks run empty as I'm afraid of end of tank dump. I doubt it would be an issue but I just avoid it. So normally weigh my tank empty, weigh it when full (so I know how much I have), then disconnect my tank from the aquarium and weigh it every 30 days or so to get an idea of how long I can go. Once I got everything dialed in and adjusted I know how many oz of co2 I go through per month. For my tank I can go 5-6 months so I normally fill it up every 3-4 months. Puts me at like $16-$25 per year for CO2 fills with no worry of end of tank dump.

4 Is a pressure relief valve necessary?[/QUOTE]
The WRCO2 regulator has a pressure relief valve on the back (behind the clip if your has that). The paintball tank also has a pressure relief valve. These are to prevent the tank from blowing up if it gets hot or filled to much. When pressure goes too high the relief valve will release pressure. Since you regulator is already build for paintball Co2 you do not need to worry about it having a correct relief valve.
 
#46 ·
To avoid the entanglement of the tubing you must have a ball valve to disconnect the system from the tank, correct? I don’t see any o-rings in the regulator or on top of the paintball tank. Do you mean there is an o-ring that goes on top of the tank which the regulator screws on top?
Just hold the regulator and start turning the tank will its unscrewed.When removing the tank the only thing that needs to move/spin is the tank. The O-ring is at the top of the tank threads you can see some info at the following youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNsZeKLKXDM. Also your picture has the plastic protector cap on the tank. The threads and o-ring are under it.

My metric scale is too little to weigh the tank. Got a link to the scale you use?
You can usually use a postal scale or a food scale.

Yeh I figured it would last 3 to 6 months. Fill up is $7 for me.
Sounds about right. So much depends on efficiency of diffusion of co2 into the water. Like a bubbling atomizer will get less co2 into the water than say a good reactor. So to get the same effect you would need to pump out more co2 and much would just hit the top of the water and go into the air.

You mean what looks like a bolt on the top of the tank is a pressure relief valve? Don't see how pressure on the regulator can be released with the clip on. Read that you took the clip off. I am trying to do so. Pmd[/QUOTE]
Technically the tank and regulator both have a burst disk. Not relief on demand more relief if the tank gets too much pressure. Me calling the burst disk a relief valve was not the best wording. The regulator if you dial it down has a small hole that will relieve the pressure to match the pressure you dialed in. So you could crank the regulator down to zero, but you will still have pressure in the line. Just unscrewing the tank will handle relief (not perfectly) cause it will shoot out a burst of pressure that will usually damage the o-ring. Then you just replace the o-ring.
 
#47 ·
Just hold the regulator and start turning the tank will its unscrewed.When removing the tank the only thing that needs to move/spin is the tank.

I envision dropping the tank doing that, for the exhaust from the tank may aggravate my allergies. When my allergies act up I get clumsy. I am just going to put a ball valve on the tubing before the diffuser. Then I can go outside and unscrew the tank sitting down.
The O-ring is at the top of the tank threads
I found on you tube that it is hiding between the treads.
Like a bubbling atomizer will get less co2 into the water than say a good reactor. So to get the same effect you would need to pump out more co2 and much would just hit the top of the water and go into the air.
Just using a Spiral Glass Aquarium Tank CO2 Diffuser temporarily. I think I will put it under the filter intake and see how that works. Then experiment with a powerhead. Maybe I will build a reactor. Just sometimes I found the hard way DIY project cost as much as the product new. So need to research before I build
B]Technically the tank and regulator both have a burst disk. Not relief on demand more relief if the tank gets too much pressure.
Well that is all I need, for I am just concerned as to what will happen if the pressure builds up due to something malfunctioning. NowI am not too worried. I just hope I put everything together tight so it doesn't burst on me. I will have the tank anchored to the wall so that the tank won't move.

Thanks! Thanks!
 
#50 · (Edited)
Now thinking of getting Clippard EVO-3-12 and then use this cheap Chinese needle valve that came with Citric Co2 system from Ebay. Or maybe get a Clippard EVO-3M-24 and use PIC Needle Valve NV-B-1/4-MXM, which is 2x the cost of 1 on Ebay. Which is the safest and best to use? I am going to wait until local aquarium auction October to get the items for I have a lot to auction off from a friend.
 

Attachments

#51 · (Edited)
This is proving harder than I thought it would. I look at the ready to go regulator and solenoid setups and I see cheap parts. So I think this will last longer. Finally ordered my parts ordered and most will be in with a week. Went for the Solenoid EVO-3-12. Seemed easier to connect all via tubing. Plan to anchor the paintball tank using a fire hydrant holder to the wall on the side of the tank. Then want to put the solenoid etc. on the bottom shelf of the tank. Thus if I need to adjust the needle valve it is easy to get to.

Will this setup work? If you have some better ideas could you give me a link for the parts?

Regulator> Barb 1/4NPT to 1/8" > tubing > 10-32 Pressure fitting barb> Solenoid EVO-3-12>10-32 Pressure fitting barb>tubing>needle valve from Citric Co2 system w compression fittings>bubble counter with check valve>Diffuser Rhinox SpioIII

When items from China arrive will replace barb to regulator with Pneumatic fitting push in line fitting. Then will replace diffuser with inline diffuser. Also will be replacing barbs to solenoid with 1/8"NPT to 6mm push in fittings from China. Bought a few things double for there is an aquarium auction Oct 2 and I want to have my Co2 system up around that time. Next year will get a better needle valve.
 

Attachments

This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top