do TB breed true? - Page 2 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #16 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-30-2013, 04:06 AM
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do TB breed true?

I have gotten wr from bkkxbkk. And bkk from wrxwr. Working on bbxbb and ghxgh

I get more bkk panda than any other no matter the cross or pattern


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post #17 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-30-2013, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbarbee54 View Post
I have gotten wr from bkkxbkk. And bkk from wrxwr. Working on bbxbb and ghxgh

I get more bkk panda than any other no matter the cross or pattern


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My understanding is that the blue bolt genotype is as follows: gg tt BB or gg tt Bb

Where g stands for the recessive golden allele, t stands for the recessive taiwan bee alelle, and B stands for the dominant black allele.

If you crossed two gg tt Bb Blue Bolts you should end up with
75% bb, and 25% red bolt.

Of course, you can't tell a gg tt BB from a gg tt Bb individual by looking at them---all are Blue Bolts, so this is theoretical.

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post #18 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-30-2013, 04:46 AM
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do TB breed true?

So crossing bbxbb could result in rb. Hmm


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post #19 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-30-2013, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbarbee54 View Post
So crossing bbxbb could result in rb. Hmm


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Yes, in the same way that you could get 25% wr from crossing two BKKs.

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post #20 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-30-2013, 02:29 PM
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TB's are the best for color variations. If you start with 10 WR,BB BKK you will have from full black or red to like SSS pattern. I have one Red Bolt, 2x no entry black shadows and 2-3 SSS like reds .I did start with low grade BB and some regular WR and pandas.
Potentials are endless. Probably after some years and hard work in color separations they will start reproduce true.
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post #21 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-30-2013, 03:43 PM Thread Starter
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I'm looking at getting some TBs within the next 6 months probably, however if they don't breed true right now- then the different colors will all live together and will throw what they throw.

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post #22 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-30-2013, 05:45 PM
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TB x TB = 100% TB, so I assume the "true breeding" we talk about is the phenotype (ex: BKK x BKK gets you 100% BKK). Okay, if so, it's not the case for most of the TBs, and that's what the so-called pure line Taiwan bee hype is all about (i.e. PL WR x PL WR always get you WR). To me though, I'd rather they throw different types of TB to make my tanks colourful.
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post #23 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-30-2013, 05:57 PM Thread Starter
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Randy- yep. That's what I was talking about. I also learned something new with the PL. Thanks!

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post #24 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-30-2013, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randyl View Post
TB x TB = 100% TB, so I assume the "true breeding" we talk about is the phenotype (ex: BKK x BKK gets you 100% BKK). Okay, if so, it's not the case for most of the TBs, and that's what the so-called pure line Taiwan bee hype is all about (i.e. PL WR x PL WR always get you WR). To me though, I'd rather they throw different types of TB to make my tanks colourful.
I think the hype is mostly about pure line Wine Reds. The red versus black trait is more complicated than just a single locus. It's likely several genes that are loosely linked. What this means is that a standard WR often has at least one other gene for black coloration, which leads to black mottling in the red coloration. I think that by inbreeding WR with WR for many generations and culling the shrimps with any expression of dominant black traits, you can end up with a nicer WR.

In the simplest scenario, you can imagine this being two genes for coloration on the same chromosome--One for color, and one a color modifier gene. Usually they are inherited together, but sometimes because of crossing over (recombination), you end up with a red gene being passed on in combination with a black modifier gene in a sperm or egg. If this was combined with a sperm or egg that had both the red gene and the red modifier gene, this could result in a mostly red phenotype, with black mottling.

I think it is actually more complicated than this, with at least 2 color modifier genes in addition to the main color gene. (Besides the color mottling, I've also seen CBS with red tails, but not always both traits together.)

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post #25 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-30-2013, 06:52 PM Thread Starter
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I love that we have a group, albeit small, that likes to dabble in figuring colorations out.

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post #26 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-30-2013, 07:58 PM
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This kind of thing really peaks my interest. I love working with genetics and punnett squares. Just need to figure out all the different shrimp color variations that have popped up since I was last active in the hobby hahaha. Back in '09 / '10 all you had was Red Cherry Shrimp, yellow shrimp (yellow cherries), blue shrimp (blue neos), and CRS/CBS were starting to become popular. Now the variations make my head spin! In a good way of course

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post #27 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-30-2013, 08:53 PM
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Unfortunately, all we can see is the phenotypes, and base on that one can only guess or assume their genotypes and then prove it correct or not. I'm sure TB phenotype isn't controlled by just one gene (monohybrid), as the F1 mischling breeding can be used to prove it wrong. I'm leaning toward it's multiple gene that together determine the phenotype, I can *almost* use my F7 mischling breeding to support it (although, not proving it).

I did take genetics and breeding in university but that long long time ago, and I have "returned" most I learned to my prof ;-) Nowadays, I just want to know some fundamentals (even that is hard) and enjoy this hobby.
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post #28 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-30-2013, 09:14 PM
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The big help in any of this is going to be excessive documentation loosely proving what makes what in very controlled environments.

The same situation inherits the problem of no-one really knows what you are starting with as a control. Even if you have a "pure line" you are bound to have anomalies, which is the fun I see in it. The possibilities are endless with the right amount of dedication (or insanity). It is certainly not for people who thrive on instant gratification.
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post #29 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-30-2013, 10:16 PM Thread Starter
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Tell me about that! LOL But at least we don't have to wait years before breeding the offspring!

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post #30 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-30-2013, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Soothing Shrimp View Post
Tell me about that! LOL But at least we don't have to wait years before breeding the offspring!

Yep, and the other benefit is that we can easily manipulate the population by being able to identify the changes before they reach breeding maturity and rehousing them as needed to either prove or disprove the theories.

I can see this thread ending up in picture of a wall of 2.5g controlled breeding experiments
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