Active substrate end of life, time for a new tank and idea - Page 4 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #46 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 11:56 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Green_Flash View Post
Cool thread to read.



Very true. there are TB breeders that use only sponge filters as filtration.

the flourite is a non active substrate correct? meaning it won't dissolve or leach back out things?

could crushed lava rock (like GLA sells) be used a similar/cheaper substitute?
Yes, flourite is non active.

----

Setup the second tank a few minutes ago after letting silcone dry from yesterday with the substrate divider and sponge holder in place. I squeezed a sponge filter in there to get some good mulm and bacteria going so it's cloudy right now. Should be crystal by morning.




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post #47 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-24-2012, 12:20 AM
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Adding the clado is basically adding an unkillable, nitrate, and phosphate sucking sponge with tons of surface area for shrimp to pick at and eat..
And agian because its algae. U dont have to really feed it the right nutrients. It'll just grow for ya

Its a win win for keep a high end shrimp tank stable imo, but im not a hugely successful shrimp keeper. Im too busy trying to grow fish and plants.. The logic behind it just seems sound
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post #48 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-24-2012, 12:44 AM
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I didn't see it in the thread but what sponge did you end up going with. curious about the ppi choice you went with. for shrimp higher the better 40-50ppi keeps the baby shrimp out of the back of the filter area.
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post #49 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-24-2012, 05:25 AM
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I got to thinking;

in saltwater, they start with ro/di, pure water right, then they add the salt mix. they don't have the rocks/sand buffer the water to the right param, they do that before hand

ok

why can't the same be applied to freshwater shrimp tanks? start with ro/di, add the minerals and adjust the pH and params and pour it in the tank.

then waterchange/top off with the correct water.

why do we need substrates that buffer to begin with?

if the source water is perfect, why would substrate matter?

true the water declines over time and needs to be replenished but that is no different from a marine tank when they do a water change

that is what you are experimenting on right?
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post #50 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-24-2012, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Green_Flash View Post
I got to thinking;

in saltwater, they start with ro/di, pure water right, then they add the salt mix. they don't have the rocks/sand buffer the water to the right param, they do that before hand

ok

why can't the same be applied to freshwater shrimp tanks? start with ro/di, add the minerals and adjust the pH and params and pour it in the tank.

then waterchange/top off with the correct water.

why do we need substrates that buffer to begin with?

if the source water is perfect, why would substrate matter?

true the water declines over time and needs to be replenished but that is no different from a marine tank when they do a water change

that is what you are experimenting on right?
That's part of the idea. Just lowering the pH before hand is harder to get a consistent level than it is raising the pH with crushed coral, etc. Part of my experiment is to see if I can get a good CRS breeding colony without using active substrate to get the pH to 5-6.4 or so where most people say CRS need to be and rather just use RO water and a bit of fulvic acid to get it 6.7-6.9 and see if they can adapt.

20g platy, , 2 x 10g shrimp, 3 x 20g shrimp, 7.5g shrimp and 1 great dane/mastiff puppy.

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post #51 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-25-2012, 01:31 AM
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I have no experience in salt water but a thing I know is high KH level. KH level determine the power to hold ph level. In a specific shrimp tank where 0 KH is the goal, PH will go up and down without a buffering substrate. So substrate is ideal for shrimps.
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post #52 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 11:42 PM Thread Starter
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HMF is doing good, shrimp love grazing on it, lots of breeding and berrying going on. pH is about 6.7, temp is 68F. Hopefully I'll see some babies from the berried ones I put in there. The 2nd tank is about ready so I can switch over the high grades and low grades.
No active substrate, no crazy canisters, big sponge wall, RO water with Salty Shrimp minerals and Ebiken Sosei. It does seem to lower the pH a tiny bit.

Only death I noticed was my own fault and one of my SSS too. I ran a HOB filter with some floss in it to clear up the water, unplugged the filter, prefilter sponge came off, moved the filter to the 2nd tank to clear up that water, plugged it in and out came a SSS, not moving. It must have crawled up the intake tube during the few seconds it was shut off and before I moved it.

All my ramshorns I put in are alive too, instead of them dying all the time in the 5pH water.

Feeding time.


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post #53 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 11:47 PM Thread Starter
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I have no experience in salt water but a thing I know is high KH level. KH level determine the power to hold ph level. In a specific shrimp tank where 0 KH is the goal, PH will go up and down without a buffering substrate. So substrate is ideal for shrimps.
Maybe my RO comes out with an undetectable but small amount of kH but I haven't had a single pH swing. I monitor all the time and test my meter with my calibration solution and it's 6.7 dead on every time.

20g platy, , 2 x 10g shrimp, 3 x 20g shrimp, 7.5g shrimp and 1 great dane/mastiff puppy.

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post #54 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 11:49 PM
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Looking good.

Two questions:

1. Why do you keep your temp so low? Mine is at exactly 73.5 and they are breeding very fast. They slow down when I had my temp below 72.

2. How much of the Sosei do you need to use in order to drop the PH to 6.8? I presume your RO water is at a PH of 7? How many servings would the full bag accomplish? I wonder whether it really is cheaper to use Sosei in the long run or whether ADA Amazonia is really the way to go.
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post #55 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-28-2012, 12:03 AM
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great results so far!
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post #56 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-28-2012, 12:27 AM Thread Starter
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Looking good.

Two questions:

1. Why do you keep your temp so low? Mine is at exactly 73.5 and they are breeding very fast. They slow down when I had my temp below 72.

2. How much of the Sosei do you need to use in order to drop the PH to 6.8? I presume your RO water is at a PH of 7? How many servings would the full bag accomplish? I wonder whether it really is cheaper to use Sosei in the long run or whether ADA Amazonia is really the way to go.
It's what my room's at and they're fine so rather than mess with a heater and have it screw up and toast my shrimp, I rather keep them cool. All my heaters are just random ones I've gotten in boxes of stuff and I wouldn't trust without testing first.

Yes, my RO is about 7 and that was the regular dosing of the Sosei, one spoonful per 20-30 gals, cost like $8 for a 30gram bag, it should last a while. I just don't want to have to change substrate all the time, hit that end of active substrate life, and it's a test to see how well they will adapt over time without it. If it doesn't work, it doesn't and I'll go back to that route. I just trying different stuff, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I think if the mineral content is right and stable, that's more important than the pH being low.

We'll see.


----------------

Got bored a little while ago and set this up with rocks from my backyard and stuff I had laying around. I like the minimal look it.


20g platy, , 2 x 10g shrimp, 3 x 20g shrimp, 7.5g shrimp and 1 great dane/mastiff puppy.

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post #57 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-28-2012, 12:34 AM
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If it doesn't work, it doesn't and I'll go back to that route. I just trying different stuff, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I think if the mineral content is right and stable, that's more important than the pH being low.
I like this. I'm usually testing the old myths as well so I am glad there are others out there.

A few weeks ago I dumped brand new ADA Africana on top of my old Akadama without cycling etc. Some people thought I was crazy. Today I have more berried females than I did prior to my little experiment.
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post #58 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-28-2012, 12:44 AM Thread Starter
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I like this. I'm usually testing the old myths as well so I am glad there are others out there.

A few weeks ago I dumped brand new ADA Africana on top of my old Akadama without cycling etc. Some people thought I was crazy. Today I have more berried females than I did prior to my little experiment.
I got lots of berries right now too, and they are so active in the new tanks as opposed to never seeing them, they are everywhere. This was taken yesterday and I can see at least 2 new berries today.

http://youtu.be/_rlbY6iwb_g

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post #59 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-28-2012, 02:52 AM
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Will the shrimp be okay without substrate? I've read a thread on this forum they will get stressed in a bare bottom tank. Mainly because its too slippery?
And babies will have nowhere to hide.
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post #60 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-28-2012, 03:00 AM Thread Starter
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Will the shrimp be okay without substrate? I've read a thread on this forum they will get stressed in a bare bottom tank. Mainly because its too slippery?
And babies will have nowhere to hide.



The back half of the tank is Flourite black for substrate, BB to build up, it's against the sponge so the sponge should pull some debrib from the substrate like a UGF, gives the moss a place to plant, babies to hide, stuff for them to pick at, but won't degrade like active substrate and since it has a high CEC, it may retain some of the Sosei I dose to help release it. I also seeded underneath the substrate with Bioplus, EI, Sosei and Mineral plus to get it nice and full of minerals, fulvic acid, and baby food/bacterias. The idea, to me anyways, of the half and half tank is the glass part is easy to feed, and if you notice, shrimp poop mostly when they are eating, so I feed on the bare part and can take an airline hose and suckup the food/poop so it doesn't sit there. Easy to keep it spotless.

I also have cholla wood for babies to hide, lava rock piles, almond leaves, and I am going to grow moss all the way up the HMF sponge wall as well, so babies should be fine and they do have substrate, just about 40% of the tank of it, that's all. All my lava rock has been in tanks for 1-3 years and have nice algae, bits of moss, biofilm on them. I did setup the tank quick and added shrimp in 3 days but everything I added was well seeded material.


This is a test to use a HMF filter for low cost and maintenance, no active substrate to lower pH to 5 range and keep the pH around 6.7 but keep all the minerals the same and everything else to see if they really need a low ph or can adapt to it as long as their other params are in check.

20g platy, , 2 x 10g shrimp, 3 x 20g shrimp, 7.5g shrimp and 1 great dane/mastiff puppy.

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My Tanks and my shrimps

Last edited by GeToChKn; 12-28-2012 at 03:11 AM. Reason: mmm
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