Genetics of PFR/Sakura/Ultimate Red etc... - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-04-2012, 03:23 PM Thread Starter
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Genetics of PFR/Sakura/Ultimate Red etc...

I'm hoping someone here can ease my mind. I know that with neos, that if you mix different colors together, that the resulting offspring will likely revert to a brownish color that they often have in the wild. Most people consider this unattractive compared to the bright reds, yellows, oranges and blues that have been carefully bred into our hobby shrimps.

My question is about the bright red ones. Is it possible that some of the red breeding lines out there are actually genetically different and that mixing them will result in wild neo coloration instead of strengthening the red?

I ask because I have a thriving colony (several hundred in a 55 gal) of RCS with mediocre color, and I just added a handful of PFR that I won in a contest from Southern Oak Aquatics. The new ones are absolutely gorgeous. I figured they would improve and strengthen the colors in my colony over time, especially if I add more PFRs or Sakuras as time goes on and I can afford them. Obviously, this wouldn't work if these red breeding lines are genetically different though.

So, are they the same, or close enough to the same that my plan will work? Or could crossing a PFR with someone else's Sakura result in a wild brown type?
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-04-2012, 03:29 PM
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It is always possible the color could mutate at a different allele, however I have not heard of that happening yet in in cherries. You should be fine.

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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-04-2012, 03:33 PM
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Over time it will get better, but then it wont, as shrimp can have multiple fathers per clutch. So you could get some improving and some deproving. Best to cull and sell off the uglies or uses as feeders

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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-04-2012, 03:50 PM
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there's two views to take...

these new reds will improve the quality of color of your existing inbred colony...

-or-

putting these new reds will dilute the potential by adding to the colony of inbred cherries.

eitherway, if breeding were of interest you might be better off to focus breeding with these and keeping them separate from your existing colony.

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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-04-2012, 03:51 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Soothing Shrimp View Post
It is always possible the color could mutate at a different allele, however I have not heard of that happening yet in in cherries. You should be fine.
Awesome. That's what I wanted to hear!

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Over time it will get better, but then it wont, as shrimp can have multiple fathers per clutch. So you could get some improving and some deproving. Best to cull and sell off the uglies or uses as feeders
Nah, I'm not interested in culling, just slowly improving the colony's color by adding some nicer shrimp every now and then.

Just wanted to make sure it was OK to get a dozen from SOAK last month, a dozen from Speedie next month, and a dozen from Ms. Jinkzd a few months later without working against myself by doing this.
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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-04-2012, 05:22 PM
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You kind of are working against yourself if they do breed with the plain rcs you have. I would pull your best and mix them with the ones you are getting.

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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-04-2012, 05:32 PM
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I agree with the consensus of this thread.

Putting higher quality shrimp in can either improve the quality of your batch or over time degrade the quality of your additions, in the end it is just the amount of genes averaging out, if you have more low quality shrimp, than the average will drop down, and vice versa.

That is the whole reason shrimp keepers practice selective breeding, or culling. If you remove the lower quality traits from the gene pool, you enhance the likelihood of your offspring having more desirable traits.

You really are working against yourself by not culling the worst looking ones. I want to note here that culling is not killing, culling is merely removing the genes from the breeding pool. I keep all my culls in a separate tank, because there is still a miniscule chance that a cull's offspring can have a nice coloration, in which that shrimp will be allowed back into the main population.
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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-04-2012, 09:57 PM Thread Starter
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I agree with the consensus of this thread.

Putting higher quality shrimp in can either improve the quality of your batch or over time degrade the quality of your additions, in the end it is just the amount of genes averaging out, if you have more low quality shrimp, than the average will drop down, and vice versa.
That's what I'm trying to do, increase the average quality of my shrimp colony. I have only one tank and have zero interest in anything other than a healthy, colorful aquarium.

My question was solely about the different types of bright red neos, and whether or not the were actually genetically different. My thinking is that every time I add a handful of PFR to my colony, that it will increase the average color of the colony a tiny bit. I know that's what I want to do. I just wanted to make sure if that if I add a dozen "Sakura" or "Ultimate Red" from a different shrimp monger, that I'm still moving in the same direction as when I added PFR, and not actually working against myself.
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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-07-2012, 06:20 PM Thread Starter
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OK, so you guys have convinced me that I need to set up a PFR/Sakura/UltimateRed aquarium, and once that's established, I can take the culls from that colony to improve the color of the colony in my big aquarium.

Now I need advice on how to convince the wife that I need a new aquarium!
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-07-2012, 06:41 PM
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Always nice to say sorry after the deed is already done.

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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-07-2012, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DaTrueDave View Post
OK, so you guys have convinced me that I need to set up a PFR/Sakura/UltimateRed aquarium, and once that's established, I can take the culls from that colony to improve the color of the colony in my big aquarium.

Now I need advice on how to convince the wife that I need a new aquarium!
sometimes its easier/better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission =P
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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-07-2012, 09:17 PM
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I have Separated the sakura's and the fire reds into separate tanks. Also put a few fire red males in with the sakura's.
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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-07-2012, 10:04 PM Thread Starter
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I have Separated the sakura's and the fire reds into separate tanks. Also put a few fire red males in with the sakura's.
Can anyone point me in the direction of a thread or web page that outlines the different types of red neos? I thought PFR, Sakura, and Ultimate Red were all different names for the same type of coloration. I didn't realize they were significantly different.
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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-07-2012, 11:46 PM
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Can anyone point me in the direction of a thread or web page that outlines the different types of red neos? I thought PFR, Sakura, and Ultimate Red were all different names for the same type of coloration. I didn't realize they were significantly different.
http://www.planetinverts.com/FireRedShrimp.html
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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-08-2012, 04:39 AM Thread Starter
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And where do you think Speedie's Supreme Reds fall in that spectrum?
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