Question: Anoxic filtration - The Planted Tank Forum
 
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-24-2015, 11:52 AM Thread Starter
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Question: Anoxic filtration

I've been reading up on Anoxic filtration for pond's and wondered if I could design a version for my freshwater planted community tank. http://www.mankysanke.co.uk/html/anoxic_filtration.html

There doesn't seem to be enough data on the exact size basket of kitty litter needed for a given amount of bioload. Reading through the article again it seems that planting the basket will benefit the reduction in ammonia and nitrates. If I use a 6 inch diameter and height basket I can plant dwarf swords heavily on top.

My tank is 38 gallon, and I was thinking to hide it behind the swords in a back corner. I am thinking a swimming pool skimmer basket would be about the right size.

I was thinking to install this filter, wait about 3 months, then start slowing down the flow of my canister filter to see if Anoxic filter has colonized and is working.

I wanted some feedback on the feasibility of this application before investing a bunch of time and money.

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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-24-2015, 01:19 PM
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Interesting, didn't get to read the entire article but from what I gathered the size of the basket is important the author said around 30cmX30cmX20cm. If it is too small it will probably not restrict enough oxygen and will not create the desired anoxic zone. I would think this would not work in a 38G. Just my take

Well that's just like.........your opinion man.
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-24-2015, 05:11 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by thedudeabides View Post
Interesting, didn't get to read the entire article but from what I gathered the size of the basket is important the author said around 30cmX30cmX20cm. If it is too small it will probably not restrict enough oxygen and will not create the desired anoxic zone. I would think this would not work in a 38G. Just my take

Yea... That's been in the back of my mind the whole time I've been ignoring it.

Interesting read though.

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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-24-2015, 06:19 PM
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But if your tank is planted wouldnt the plants take up the ammonia anyway? Wouldnt that forego the need for these baskets?
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-24-2015, 07:44 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jasa73 View Post
But if your tank is planted wouldnt the plants take up the ammonia anyway? Wouldnt that forego the need for these baskets?
My tank is moderately planted and stocked to the limit. Looking on the left side of the tank you will see the Purigen reactor I made to soak up some of the dissolved organics reducing ammonia and therefore reducing nitrates.

I was thinking of a ammonia/nitrate Anoxic filter that is self-powered (bacteria).

Regenerating Purigen sux and I just buy new bottles to replenish the reactor when exhausted.


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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-24-2015, 10:26 PM
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You should really plant more, we can see the background and the substrate. Lots of real estate to fill in here.
It's unfortunate your sowrd is so close to the glass. It's cramped there. Looks healthy though.

I would venture to say that anaerobic process is rather slow compare to what plants can do. You might want to look at deep sand beds (DSB). That's pretty much what DSB does.
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-24-2015, 11:12 PM
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I would also add more plants if your goal is to reduce ammonia. Moss and anubias make up almost half your biomass, which are slow growers. Your sword and (s.repens?) will help. But if you add some faster growing stems that may forgo your need for a reactor. But it may not be in your plan for anymore plants. But many of us actually dose nitrates into the water to keep our plants growing. And if you ascribe to the EI method (I do), you're actually providing more nutrients than the plants need, including nitrate - with no harm to the livestock. I use purigen as well, but for a "water polisher" as opposed to pulling ammonia out. IMHO one of the biggest advantages to a planted tank is the ability to basically have no ammonia because of the presence of our plants.

Out of curiosity what is so heinous about recharging purigen? I literally just eyeball half bleach, half water without measuring.
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-24-2015, 11:26 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jasa73 View Post
I would also add more plants if your goal is to reduce ammonia. Moss and anubias make up almost half your biomass, which are slow growers. Your sword and (s.repens?) will help. But if you add some faster growing stems that may forgo your need for a reactor. But it may not be in your plan for anymore plants. But many of us actually dose nitrates into the water to keep our plants growing. And if you ascribe to the EI method (I do), you're actually providing more nutrients than the plants need, including nitrate - with no harm to the livestock. I use purigen as well, but for a "water polisher" as opposed to pulling ammonia out. IMHO one of the biggest advantages to a planted tank is the ability to basically have no ammonia because of the presence of our plants.

Out of curiosity what is so heinous about recharging purigen? I literally just eyeball half bleach, half water without measuring.

I have no plans to fill my aquarium with plants. The tank is for my fish. I spend lots of time watching them.

Purigen: I don't like the smell and mess of recharging (which I've done in the past).

I planted some anachris behind the plant on the right side. You can't see them yet, they're still pretty short.

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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-25-2015, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedudeabides View Post
Interesting, didn't get to read the entire article but from what I gathered the size of the basket is important the author said around 30cmX30cmX20cm. If it is too small it will probably not restrict enough oxygen and will not create the desired anoxic zone. I would think this would not work in a 38G. Just my take
He says later in the article that the aerobic sections of the basket are only a couple millimeters deep, and anything past that is anoxic. It would probably work with smaller baskets, but they would still need to be relatively sizable and take up a lot of real estate within the tank. Problem is that you can't know for sure whether or not it would actually work except through trial and error, and that risks the well-being of your livestock.
Is there a way to roughly translate the "1 basket per koi" figure to reflect the smaller size and bioload of tropical community fish? Eg. Two koi fully stock a 500 gallon pond, a job done roughly equally by 300 guppies (according to Aqadvisor), meaning 10% of two baskets (3.6 liters) for a tank with 30 guppies?
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-25-2015, 07:07 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Raaan View Post
He says later in the article that the aerobic sections of the basket are only a couple millimeters deep, and anything past that is anoxic. It would probably work with smaller baskets, but they would still need to be relatively sizable and take up a lot of real estate within the tank. Problem is that you can't know for sure whether or not it would actually work except through trial and error, and that risks the well-being of your livestock.
Is there a way to roughly translate the "1 basket per koi" figure to reflect the smaller size and bioload of tropical community fish? Eg. Two koi fully stock a 500 gallon pond, a job done roughly equally by 300 guppies (according to Aqadvisor), meaning 10% of two baskets (3.6 liters) for a tank with 30 guppies?

I saw the depth estimate of the aerobic outer regions of the cat litter. I use a Purigen reactor currently to regulate the nitrates. It has a valve that I adjust the flow to keep the nitrates less than 10ppm max between water changes. An indication that the Anoxic filter is working is the elimination of the need for the purigen reactor. Eliminating the reactor is the goal, not the elimination of the conventional filters.

Many people use cat litter for substrate, so it shouldn't represent anything more than a basket of clay that works or it doesn't.

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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-27-2015, 10:20 PM
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This is a position that has been held in reefkeeping circles since the late 90s as well, natural nitrate reduction.

I see what you mean about not wanting plant uptake for your waste, density of growth etc not everyone wants the dutch look. i think your ends lie in direct chemical adsorbtion of your target molecules, as NNR is as elusive in fw as it is in salt imo

in the 90s, live rock and live sand were supposed to degas your reef of no3

all the technical articales said it does

ffwd 2015 whats in use
gfo, biopellets, nnr is obsolete and occuring on trace levels so we had to move on

thats the standard for fw as well imo... to be able to harness it. there are literally thousands of articles on the web about how it occurs, agreed.

one could set up ten tanks intended for it and get no measured benefit, but one could also set up ten tanks for specific controls over export and organic management using filters and specialized adsorbtion media and have all ten comply, to me there's that much of a dichotomy between the claims and the outcome of nnr in either setting.

that being said, set it up and have fun we are all just opining here lol.
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http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog...l-going-strong

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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-27-2015, 11:49 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by brandon429 View Post
This is a position that has been held in reefkeeping circles since the late 90s as well, natural nitrate reduction.

I see what you mean about not wanting plant uptake for your waste, density of growth etc not everyone wants the dutch look. i think your ends lie in direct chemical adsorbtion of your target molecules, as NNR is as elusive in fw as it is in salt imo

in the 90s, live rock and live sand were supposed to degas your reef of no3

all the technical articales said it does

ffwd 2015 whats in use
gfo, biopellets, nnr is obsolete and occuring on trace levels so we had to move on

thats the standard for fw as well imo... to be able to harness it. there are literally thousands of articles on the web about how it occurs, agreed.

one could set up ten tanks intended for it and get no measured benefit, but one could also set up ten tanks for specific controls over export and organic management using filters and specialized adsorbtion media and have all ten comply, to me there's that much of a dichotomy between the claims and the outcome of nnr in either setting.

that being said, set it up and have fun we are all just opining here lol.
B

This post was to get opinions. Make no mistake direct absorption works well, but the regen mess is the reason I was thinking of biological elimination of ammonia/nitrates.

Current -
Purigen Purigen
absorbs some of the dissolved organics in the water column, thereby reducing ammonia and nitrates, the plants do the rest. My nitrates hover between 2-5ppm. Purigen regen is a disaster in my tank if you use the Prime/Neutral Regulator steps. I always get a pH crash because my water is lightly buffered (~2 dKH). Plus the Neutral Regulator is phosphate based, so you run the risk of an algae bloom. Rinsing the bleach out well and then soaking in a 5 gallon bucket of water afterwards for a day works for me. I do test for chlorine with test strips before use.

Previous -
NitratR NitratR
directly absorbs nitrates and does it well. But the resin would exhaust quickly and each 500ml of resin requires 6 cups of table salt to regen. Nitrates were a trace with this resin. I believe NitaratR is just the resin used in water softeners.

The oversize reactor you see in the photo above is the result of trying to get Seachem De'Nitrate media to work (don't waste your time, it doesn't). I just dumped a bottle of Purigen in it. Worked great for NitratR also.

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Last edited by BigXor; 08-27-2015 at 11:52 PM. Reason: Content
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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-28-2015, 01:21 AM
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That tree is highly natural looking im jealous lol nice scape too.

small old reef tank:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog...l-going-strong

Garfieldnfish cured my planaria prob
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