New Nutrafin cycle test - Page 2 - The Planted Tank Forum
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #16 of 42 (permalink) Old 06-30-2013, 03:05 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Contra Costa CA
Posts: 11,721
The bacteria that process ammonia at aquarium levels also lives in a humid environment. They do not need to be submerged. They live in garden soil. Animal waste and dead animals are the sources of ammonia to feed these bacteria in the soil. They turn ammonia into nitrite and nitrate the same as in our aquariums. Land plants are much better at utilizing nitrate than most aquatic plants.

A biowheel will grow a very large population of nitrifying bacteria. The species they grow depends on the level of ammonia in the water. The concept has been tried in waste water plants, as well as being used for aquariums. The secret to the bio wheel is the thin layer of water. It takes in a lot of oxygen, which is just what these organisms need to function.

The bacteria that we are growing in our aquariums will grow on all the filter media, all the sponges, floss and so on, not just the specialized bio media. The water flow through the filter is bringing the oxygen and ammonia to the bacteria.
Diana is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of 42 (permalink) Old 06-30-2013, 03:23 AM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
lipadj46's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: NY
Posts: 939
Quote:
Originally Posted by meppitech View Post
I would look into whether your dechlorinator interferes with the nutrifin. I know that eith safestart you are not supposed to use prime for a certain amount of time. This is why i suggest checking before a water change. To play it safe i would wait. The plants wont mind the nitrates. Once you are done cycling you can do enough eater changes to get it dropped before you add fish.
You can use prime with any bacteria in a bottle it does not "starve" the bacteria.
lipadj46 is offline  
post #18 of 42 (permalink) Old 06-30-2013, 04:20 AM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
snowtires's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 34
Well, it was my son's birthday party today, unfortunately the tank is not cycled, ammonia dropped to about 0.3 in 24 hours but nitrites are off the charts. It seems the Nitrite bacteria haven't been able to get a grip. Well I'm sorry but I gave the test almost a week and the bottle said 3 days. I am going to do a water change and we are choosing our fish tomorrow. I guess I will finish this cycle with fish. I will keep a close eye on ammonia and Nitrite levels. I have a feeling I will just have to worry about Nitrite and not ammonia.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 4 Beta
snowtires is offline  
post #19 of 42 (permalink) Old 06-30-2013, 04:32 AM
Surrounded by Blyxa
 
TexasCichlid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,510
Do not buy fish when your nitrites are off the chart.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
TexasCichlid is offline  
post #20 of 42 (permalink) Old 06-30-2013, 04:35 AM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
lipadj46's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: NY
Posts: 939
When you get your fish dump in a large bottle of tetra safe start (it has the correct bacteria) and don't do another water change unless the fish are under duress. Nite-out also has worked for me too but not as fast as TSS. BTW IME no bacteria in a bottle will cycle a tank in 3 days. TSS usually takes 7-14 days to fully cycle. You can use prime and salt to detoxify the nitrites when you put fish in. Water changes too soon after adding the bacteria will negate their purpose. Can you get a cycled sponge filter from whoever you are getting your fish from?

Good luck!
lipadj46 is offline  
post #21 of 42 (permalink) Old 06-30-2013, 04:50 AM
Green is good
 
Wannaberooted's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Eau Claire WI
Posts: 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasCichlid View Post
Do not buy fish when your nitrites are off the chart.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Ditto, do not buy fish until you are cycled. I have had my tank cycle in three days with Tetra Safe Start after a crash. It saved six Harlequins. (Thanks Diana, you are the best!) Just be patient. It's a virtue.

Wouldn't you like to beside the seaside?
Wannaberooted is offline  
post #22 of 42 (permalink) Old 06-30-2013, 07:24 AM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
snowtires's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 34
Thank you all for the great advice, however I have no problems being patient but my 3 year old is pretty excited, I have just performed 2 back to back water changes nitrates are down to less then .3 and nitrates are about 10. I added 5ml of nutrafin cycle and we will be picking out a fish tomorrow.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 4 Beta
snowtires is offline  
post #23 of 42 (permalink) Old 06-30-2013, 07:03 PM
Surrounded by Blyxa
 
TexasCichlid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,510
Get your circle of life speech ready. You may need it.
TexasCichlid is offline  
post #24 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-01-2013, 02:03 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Contra Costa CA
Posts: 11,721
I am wondering why the bacteria are not growing very well.
I am posting the fishless cycle because I have included information about the optimum water chemistry to grow these bacteria.
Please test your water and see if the other (non-nitrogen) parameters are at least in the ball park.

If the bacteria would not grow very well when you were adding ammonia from a bottle there is no reason to suggest that ammonia from fish is going to make them grow any faster.

Cycle: To grow the beneficial bacteria that remove ammonia and nitrite from the aquarium.

Fish-In Cycle: To expose fish to toxins while using them as the source of ammonia to grow nitrogen cycle bacteria. Exposure to ammonia burns the gills and other soft tissue, stresses the fish and lowers their immunity. Exposure to nitrite makes the blood unable to carry oxygen. Research methemglobinemia for details.

Fishless Cycle: The safe way to grow more bacteria, faster, in an aquarium, pond or riparium.

The method I give here was developed by 2 scientists who wanted to quickly grow enough bacteria to fully stock a tank all at one time, with no plants helping, and overstock it as is common with Rift Lake Cichlid tanks.

1a) Set up the tank and all the equipment. You can plant if you want. Include the proper dose of dechlorinator with the water.
Optimum water chemistry:
GH and KH above 3 German degrees of hardness. A lot harder is just fine.
pH above 7, and into the mid 8s is just fine.
Temperature in the upper 70s F (mid 20s C) is good. Higher is OK if the water is well aerated.
A trace of other minerals may help. Usually this comes in with the water, but if you have a pinch of KH2PO4, that may be helpful.
High oxygen level. Make sure the filter and power heads are running well. Plenty of water circulation.
No toxins in the tank. If you washed the tank, or any part of the system with any sort of cleanser, soap, detergent, bleach or anything else make sure it is well rinsed. Do not put your hands in the tank when you are wearing any sort of cosmetics, perfume or hand lotion. No fish medicines of any sort.
A trace of salt (sodium chloride) is OK, but not required.
This method of growing bacteria will work in a marine system, too. The species of bacteria are different.

1b) Optional: Add any source of the bacteria that you are growing to seed the tank. Cycled media from a healthy tank is good. Decor or some gravel from a cycled tank is OK. Live plants or plastic are OK. Bottled bacteria is great, but only if it contains Nitrospira species of bacteria. Read the label and do not waste your money on anything else.
At the time this was written the right species could be found in:
Dr. Tims One and Only
Tetra Safe Start
Microbe Lift Nite Out II
...and perhaps others.
You do not have to jump start the cycle. The right species of bacteria are all around, and will find the tank pretty fast.

2) Add ammonia until the test reads 5 ppm. This ammonia is the cheapest you can find. No surfactants, no perfumes. Read the fine print. This is often found at discount stores like Dollar Tree, or hardware stores like Ace. You could also use a dead shrimp form the grocery store, or fish food. Protein breaks down to become ammonia. You do not have good control over the ammonia level, though.
Some substrates release ammonia when they are submerged for the first time. Monitor the level and do enough water changes to keep the ammonia at the levels detailed below.

3) Test daily. For the first few days not much will happen, but the bacteria that remove ammonia are getting started. Finally the ammonia starts to drop. Add a little more, once a day, to test 5 ppm.

4) Test for nitrite. A day or so after the ammonia starts to drop the nitrite will show up. When it does allow the ammonia to drop to 3 ppm.

5) Test daily. Add ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. If the nitrite or ammonia go to 5 ppm do a water change to get these lower. The ammonia removing species and the nitrite removing species (Nitrospira) do not do well when the ammonia or nitrite are over 5 ppm.

6) When the ammonia and nitrite both hit zero 24 hours after you have added the ammonia the cycle is done. You can challenge the bacteria by adding a bit more than 3 ppm ammonia, and it should be able to handle that, too, within 24 hours.

7) Now test the nitrate. Probably sky high!
Do as big a water change as needed to lower the nitrate until it is safe for fish. Certainly well under 20, and a lot lower is better. This may call for more than one water change, and up to 100% water change is not a problem. Remember the dechlor!
If you will be stocking right away (within 24 hours) no need to add more ammonia. If stocking will be delayed keep feeding the bacteria by adding ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. You will need to do another water change right before adding the fish.
__________________________

Helpful hints:

A) You can run a fishless cycle in a bucket to grow bacteria on almost any filter media like bio balls, sponges, ceramic bio noodles, lava rock or Matala mats. Simply set up any sort of water circulation such as a fountain pump or air bubbler and add the media to the bucket. Follow the directions for the fishless cycle. When the cycle is done add the media to the filter. I have run a canister filter in a bucket and done the fishless cycle.

B) The nitrogen cycle bacteria will live under a wide range of conditions and bounce back from minor set backs. By following the set up suggestions in part 1b) you are setting up optimum conditions for fastest reproduction and growth.
GH and KH can be as low as 1 degree, but watch it! These bacteria use the carbon in carbonates, and if it is all used up (KH = 0) the bacteria may die off.
pH as low as 6.5 is OK, but by 6.0 the bacteria are not going to be doing very well. They are still there, and will recover pretty well when conditions get better.
Temperature almost to freezing is OK, but they must not freeze, and they are not very active at all. They do survive in a pond, but they are slow to warm up and get going in the spring. This is where you might need to grow some in a bucket in a warm place and supplement the pond population. Too warm is not good, either. Tropical or room temperature tank temperatures are best. (68 to 85*F or 20 to 28*C)
Moderate oxygen can be tolerated for a while. However, to remove lots of ammonia and nitrite these bacteria must have oxygen. They turn one into the other by adding oxygen. If you must stop running the filter for an hour or so, no problem. If longer, remove the media and keep it where it will get more oxygen.
Once the bacteria are established they can tolerate some fish medicines. This is because they live in a complex film called Bio film on all the surfaces in the filter and the tank. Medicines do not enter the bio film well.
These bacteria do not need to live under water. They do just fine in a humid location. They live in healthy garden soil, as well as wet locations.

C) Planted tanks may not tolerate 3 ppm or 5 ppm ammonia. It is possible to cycle the tank at lower levels of ammonia so the plants do not get ammonia burn. Add ammonia to only 1 ppm, but test twice a day, and add ammonia as needed to keep it at 1 ppm. The plants are also part of the bio filter, and you may be able to add the fish sooner, if the plants are thriving.
Diana is offline  
post #25 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-01-2013, 07:57 PM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
snowtires's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 34
Update: 24 hours ago i stocked the tank with 6 white cloud mountain minnows, added 10ml of nutrafin cycle and filled the area of the filter behind the biowheel with some fluval ceramic disc bio media. Water parameters are

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0.1

I will check water parameters every day and if nitrite spikes (i dont think ammonia will as those bacteria are established) i will do a water change. Not sure why i would need the circle of life speech if i am able to control the environment and the ammonia nitrite levels with water changes. Anyways the fish seem happy, but they are energetic. The temperature is 76f.
Also i am glad we chose these fish as they are very interesting to watch
snowtires is offline  
post #26 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-01-2013, 08:34 PM
Wannabe Guru
 
jbrady33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mt Laurel, NJ
Posts: 1,613
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowtires View Post
Not sure why i would need the circle of life speech if i am able to control the environment and the ammonia nitrite levels with water changes.
People are just speaking from experience - it's a new and not quite cycled tank. Even with water changes like you describe you will probably have fish die and have to explain what happened to your son. Even cycled tanks aren't as stable as "mature" tanks.

Think of it another way - If you had a job that caused you do be soaked in poisonous & corrosive liquid all day - not choke and die fast stuff, more like "long term exposure" is a problem stuff - and your employer said "What's the big deal, we hose you down with a firehouse at the end of every workday?" Do you think you would have health & happiness issues and some of your co-workers would die along the way? Would it be "just as good" as not having been exposed in the first place?

Last edited by jbrady33; 07-01-2013 at 08:35 PM. Reason: words
jbrady33 is offline  
post #27 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-01-2013, 10:59 PM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
snowtires's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 34
I feel like this is the "catch and release" type crowd we got here

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 4 Beta
snowtires is offline  
post #28 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-01-2013, 11:24 PM
Wannabe Guru
 
jbrady33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mt Laurel, NJ
Posts: 1,613
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowtires View Post
I feel like this is the "catch and release" type crowd we got here

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 4 Beta
nah, confirmed meat-atairian here - 100% aware of where my food comes from and how. At the same time I would want to give something like an aquarium I'm building the best chance of success (especially when it is cheaper - waiting out the cycle is free, replacing fish is not), I don't feeling like I am knowingly slowly killing something for no reason/gain/purpose, and would rather give my kid the idea that keeping a tank is doing your best to keep things alive, not accepting that half of your fish will die as a matter of course.

I hope it works out well for your sons tank
jbrady33 is offline  
post #29 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-02-2013, 05:30 AM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
snowtires's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 34
Monday evening

Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0.1ppm
Nitrate 5ppm
snowtires is offline  
post #30 of 42 (permalink) Old 07-03-2013, 02:54 AM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
snowtires's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 34
Tuesday evening

Ammonia 0 ppm
Nitrite <0.1 ppm
Nitrate 5 ppm

Fish are doing very well, very active and go crazy for food, very entertaining to watch.

The nitrite test was a very faint pink today, almost clear
The biowheel has a dark shade to it now its not white anymore

There was an extremly high nitrite level before the water changes but there was also a lot of nitrate, over 50ppm so there was a certain level of bacteria convering nitrites but not enough to catch up to the ammonia eating bacterias. With this small bioload i think i may be okay but only time will tell. I will continue to monitor the water very closely.

How long can i expect to see a possible spike from the 6 small fish?
snowtires is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome