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post #16 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somewhatshocked View Post
Google or search this forum for "fishless cycle" and most people seriously frown upon using living creatures to cycle a tank.

I don't care what livestock you use. It's my opinion that it's unnecessary and inexcusable. It is, in my opinion, rampant disregard for your livestock.

People shouldn't mention using living fish to cycle tanks if they don't want it discussed. End of story.
You effectively ignored everything I said and restated your previous post, thank you for that, all you've shown me is that you are too stubborn to accept other opinions, and would rather just stick to your own and tell everyone else to shut up. Good day.
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post #17 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 04:54 PM
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Nah, jumping to assumptions won't suit you in this case, either. Nor will getting nasty because someone gives you other options.

You do have other options to control your population rather than allowing them to suffer. Give them away to fellow hobbyists on this forum, for instance. Or, as you said, use them as feeders to continue the cycle of life. Or stop allowing them to breed to uncontrollable levels.

My point is that it's 2012. There is next to no excuse for using fish to cycle when there are countless ammonia sources available. Fish food, raw shrimp, bottled ammonia. That's my opinion. If you aren't keen on being criticized or having people question your practices that you openly and freely shared, don't mention it on a forum filled with opinionated people who prefer best practices in aquaria. It's nothing personal.
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post #18 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 04:59 PM
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Again, can you speak with a less condescending tone, I may be assuming your tone, but to me it sounds as if you think I'm some r-tard who doesn't know what he's doing. Excuse me if you think I'm "getting nasty" because of that, but you did ignore everything I said.

I am in no way trying to argue against what you said, I know it to be true. I myself cycle all my tanks with old filter media and established system system, but my point is that I still add guppies IN PLACE OF AMMONIA ADDITIVES. I only brought up the point that in this case, it really doesn't matter because the cycle of life is being continued by the feeders, their bodies will feed the bacteria.

Trust me, I know, it's nothing personal. Just a discussion about different opinions, but that doesn't give you the right to start telling me to google fishless cycles like I don't know what they are or to tell me that it's 2012 and implying I live with an outdated school of thought. I never attacked you personally, I don't see why you need to imply that to me.
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post #19 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by AVN View Post
I am in no way trying to argue against what you said, I know it to be true.
Point proved.

There is no tone-of-voice in my written text. I use as little inflection as possible so there is no confusion on the parts of those forum members who don't speak English as a first language or have difficulty discerning dialect or my native hillbillyspeak (unless it's in my own tank journals).

But I do appreciate you admitting that there are other options. We always have to keep in mind that our practices can and do influence others who are new to the hobby and just learning. When they see that there can be cordial conversations like this while learning, it's a good thing.

And to the OP: I hope you'll shed a bit more light on the specific sand you're using.
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post #20 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 05:16 PM
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Point may be proven, but it was proven from the start, it was never argued. The secondary point I discussed was ignored. And that was that feeder guppies are inexpensive alternatives to ammonia additives if you have hundreds of them on hand.

Answer me this, what is the difference if a fish eats a guppy and poops it into ammonia than if bacteria decomposes a guppy and turns it into ammonia?

Is it the suffering of the guppy as it burns in ammonia?

If so, would it then be OK to kill the guppy and then use it's dead body for ammonia? That is the same exact thing as using fish food because well, they are fish food.

Quote:
You do have other options to control your population rather than allowing them to suffer. Give them away to fellow hobbyists on this forum, for instance. Or, as you said, use them as feeders to continue the cycle of life. Or stop allowing them to breed to uncontrollable levels.
I DONATE to my LFS 200-300 guppies a month. I still have 200 left in the tank after that, I can't bear to just kill all of them, so I cull out the ones that are lower grades for food and assorted uses.

I don't think anyone on this forum would care to pay $7 shipping for a bunch of colorless feeder guppies they can get 15 for $1.

Please give me other options, because I really do need to do that.

It's nearly impossible to stop guppies from breeding. I could leave only 2 in the tank and a month later I would have 100. The following month would be 500. I could either kill them as fry or cull them after they develop as adults, either way, I can't necessarily neuter my guppies can I? Help me out here.

As for OP's sand, I would like to know what it is also. It looks beautiful and I would love to use it in a nano.
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post #21 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 05:18 PM
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does the tank come with that background? i really like it. gives it depth. if it didn't come with it, how did you make it? is it safe?

someone suggested that the 'sand' is crushed coral? if it is, then it is going to raise your pH by a good amount. but from reading your initial post, it seems like it is just regular sand which should be okay. just be careful if it is crushed coral
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post #22 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 05:25 PM Thread Starter
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Regarding Sand: The product was purchased at petco. It is not crushed reef. The packaging claims that it will not affect water chemistry / PH. Will provide more info when I get home.

Regarding Cycling with a fish: The tank currently has a certain amount of bennies living in it. Some of the fluval strat was from a starter tank I was raising the plants in (2 weeks). The filter material was primed with beneficial bacteria. I will be monitoring ammonia levels (not by # of floating fish) and will adjust / change water accordingly. When I am done with these minnows they'll go in an outdoor pond or be humanely euthanized. Until then they'll enjoy the proverbial Elysian fields of feeder fish habitats.
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post #23 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 05:31 PM
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Feeder guppies may be inexpensive. Price has nothing to do with a fish suffering a cruel death.

The difference between a fish eating a guppy and using a guppy to slowly die from ammonia toxicity: getting eaten is a super-quick death and dying from ammonia burns and poisoning is slow and often laborious.

If a guppy is killed instantly and then used to cycle a tank, that is obviously much more humane than allowing it to suffer and languish.

People constantly pay me for random culled Endlers and Guppies. Often even paying for USPS Express. All it takes is a little effort.

How to stop them from breeding: separate genders. That's why most Endler/Guppy keepers and breeders keep them separated until breeding is desired.

OP: Glad to hear it's not crushed coral so you don't have to worry about parameters altering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVN View Post
Point may be proven, but it was proven from the start, it was never argued. The secondary point I discussed was ignored. And that was that feeder guppies are inexpensive alternatives to ammonia additives if you have hundreds of them on hand.

Answer me this, what is the difference if a fish eats a guppy and poops it into ammonia than if bacteria decomposes a guppy and turns it into ammonia?

Is it the suffering of the guppy as it burns in ammonia?

If so, would it then be OK to kill the guppy and then use it's dead body for ammonia? That is the same exact thing as using fish food because well, they are fish food.



I DONATE to my LFS 200-300 guppies a month. I still have 200 left in the tank after that, I can't bear to just kill all of them, so I cull out the ones that are lower grades for food and assorted uses.

I don't think anyone on this forum would care to pay $7 shipping for a bunch of colorless feeder guppies they can get 15 for $1.

Please give me other options, because I really do need to do that.

It's nearly impossible to stop guppies from breeding. I could leave only 2 in the tank and a month later I would have 100. The following month would be 500. I could either kill them as fry or cull them after they develop as adults, either way, I can't necessarily neuter my guppies can I? Help me out here.

As for OP's sand, I would like to know what it is also. It looks beautiful and I would love to use it in a nano.
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post #24 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 05:38 PM
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I am really glad we had this discussion, maybe now you can see that I am not some ignorant keeper you wouldn't sell your livestock to.
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post #25 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 05:45 PM
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In case it's not already assumed, there is plenty of tone here:
It is disgusting to have such blatant disregard for life just because it's "cheap" to replace. Fish can feel, just like you can.
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post #26 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 05:53 PM
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It should be noted that ignorance is not a bad thing in any way. It's why this forum exists. So us ignorant people can learn from others who know more. And so we can share what we do know with those who are just starting out.

And no question - especially on a forum like this - is silly (I've seen a lot of folks apologize for their questions lately and they shouldn't). Because there's always an answer and always someone reading who can learn from it.
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post #27 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 05:55 PM
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With the ratio of plants to one minnow and 7 gallons of water. I dont even know why fish abuse is being discussed here. lol. most likely nothing will happen an the crypts will grow like weeds.

and If I were the minnow. I would personally enjoy this much more than a feeder tank. This is not a plant less cycle...(which will probably incite a lot more hate) and OP already stated that he will keep ammonia down if need be.
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post #28 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aokashi View Post
With the ratio of plants to one minnow and 7 gallons of water. I dont even know why fish abuse is being discussed here. lol. most likely nothing will happen an the crypts will grow like weeds.

and If I were the minnow. I would personally enjoy this much more than a feeder tank. This is not a plant less cycle...(which will probably incite a lot more hate) and OP already stated that he will keep ammonia down if need be.
I can see your point of view, I disagree, but you aren't saying the life is worthless from what I can tell. My comment was towards the attitude AVN has towards his fish.
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post #29 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 06:01 PM
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Holy Pogosticks, guys.

The OP seeded the tank with BB, has good plant mass and introduced a very low bioload. With that combination, it's entirely possible to do a silent cycle--which is ALSO well known and documented in this forum!
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post #30 of 88 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Knotyoureality View Post
Holy Pogosticks, guys.

The OP seeded the tank with BB, has good plant mass and introduced a very low bioload. With that combination, it's entirely possible to do a silent cycle--which is ALSO well known and documented in this forum!
I don't think it's all about the OP anymore. I think it's more about the ethics of fish in cycling.
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