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Trouble with Rotala - Fert Imbalance, CO2, Deficiency?

23K views 57 replies 11 participants last post by  OVT 
#1 ·
First real trouble shooting post for me. I've pretty much gone it alone reading other people's issues and tweaking my setup here and there. Also my first ever planted tank.

Tank Params

Ada Mini-L (so roughly 10gal)
Filter - Eheim 2213
Light - Ada Aquasky - 9hrs

CO2 - on 2 hours before lights, off hour before. Drop checker is consistently lime/yellow green throughout photoperiod. Adding Flourish Excel at recommended dose to combat some aggressive BBA that was introduced into the tank long long ago. Starting to finally win this battle.

Dosing EI
N: 10-20
P: 3-5
K: ? backed off on adding due to K in other ferts and GH booster.
Micros: CSM-B 1/64th tsp daily
Iron: 2ml Flourish Iron 2x/week
Water is quite soft out of tap 1KH and practically 0GH so I add enough baking soda and Flourish Equilibrium to bring it up to about 6KH and 6GH.
PH: generally 6.4 around mid-day
50% weekly water changes

I never used to have any problems with Rotala Rotundifolia. Early on it grew like mad for me and blushed a nice pink hue. That was when I had crushed coral in the filter to boost the KH and kept to an ADA ferts/dosing schedule. When I started having severe problems with GSA and other filamentous green algae I switched over to an EI daily dosing schedule. Now my Rotala is stunted other than a few stems that seem fine, but once those get a trim I'll have the same problem. Everything else in the tank seems ok.






 
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#2 ·
Couple of things. Are you using Aquasoil? I think I see it in the last picture but not sure.

If you are using it then you really don't need to be dosing the water column with ferts except GH booster and potassium.

How sure are you that the N level is 10-20 at all times? I see older leaves have small holes in them on the Rotalas, and smaller new growth which looks like typical nitrogen deficiency.

Also, do you know what the Ca:Mg ratio is in your tank right now?

1/64th CSM / day is very high, you are adding 0.12 ppm iron every day from CSM + B, or 0.84 ppm per week Iron. This may not be the cause of your current issue but it is definitely high and could be a problem later since many micros are toxic in tiny amounts.
 
#3 ·
Thanks for the reply Zapins!

Couple of things. Are you using Aquasoil? I think I see it in the last picture but not sure.

If you are using it then you really don't need to be dosing the water column with ferts except GH booster and potassium.
Yep Aquasoil. I'm willing to consider going back to just the GH and K, but in the tank's early days - say 6mo in. I had lots of problems with yellowing leaves on the HC, very sad looking didiplis diandra and lots of filamentous and GSA. The GSA subsided once I started dosing my phosphates above 3ppm and the tank has been free off any filamentous algae since I started lightly dosing nitrogen. Causation doesn't necessarily equal correlation here, but adding N/P did seem to help my situation.

The tank is about a year and a half in now and has seen a couple rescapes using the same aquasoil with some toping off. Just fyi.

How sure are you that the N level is 10-20 at all times? I see older leaves have small holes in them on the Rotalas, and smaller new growth which looks like typical nitrogen deficiency.
Well all times is probably generous. I usually test a couple times a week, less if things simply look healthy, and while I know test kits can lie the N is usually around 5ppm after my weekly water change and up to about 20 by end of the week.

Also, do you know what the Ca:Mg ratio is in your tank right now?
No clue. I'll have to pick up a calcium test kit before I can report on that one. Pretty much relying on the GH booster to have proper ratios at this point.

1/64th CSM / day is very high, you are adding 0.12 ppm iron every day from CSM + B, or 0.84 ppm per week Iron. This may not be the cause of your current issue but it is definitely high and could be a problem later since many micros are toxic in tiny amounts.
I'll cut this back by half.
 
#4 ·
Zapins, I don't want to say this is the answer to what's happening, but this paragraph in Happi's thread around CSM+B toxicity felt eerily similar to what has been happening in my tank the past couple months.

The actual symptoms of micro nutrient toxicities can look a lot like deficiency symptoms. But they appear as a confused conglomeration of several deficiency symptoms that do not match up with any one deficiency. This is because micro nutrients block certain enzymes and pathways in plants, and distrupt normal functioning of the cells. Often times this happens by blocking the use or uptake of another nutrient. So as happi mentioned above, an iron toxicity shows up as a pale looking plant because it blocks the use of sulfur in the photosynthetic system. The absence of sulfur from the enzymes causes the plant to look yellow (which is also a symptom of sulfur deficiency). Unfortunately this is often confused as iron deficiency because of the pale color of the plant. Hobbyists often see this pale color and think that they are not adding enough iron, so they add more iron or CSM+B and create a cycle that perpetuates the problem.
The reason I have been dosing the CSM+B so heavily is because I was noticing pale growth in the Rotala and Didiplis stems thinking it may have been an iron deficiency. I don't know if you caught it above, but I also have been dosing 2ml Flourish Iron 2x/week for the same reason.
 
#5 ·
Yes I did notice you were adding a lot of iron and I had wondered why.

I am surprised it has taken the hobby so long to realize the boundaries of what we can safely dose. It might be the cause of what you have experienced. Toxicities occur a lot more often than people think. Dosing iron using flourish iron is better than dosing iron via CSM+B. I feel it is much safer to use the recommended dose of CSM+B (to get 0.1 ppm iron) and then dose more iron using a separate product for that purpose. If you look at Seachem's line you'll notice that their micro product does not contain iron, instead they sell it as a separate mix. While this may just be coincidence, I feel that perhaps the company put some thought into this issue.

The pictures you show are somewhat difficult to tell from since the new Rotala shoots are still quite small, but it looks like nitrogen deficiency which is slightly odd considering you have aquasoil. Who knows what is still in it though. I trust plant symptoms more than I do test kits and what should be in the tank and in your pictures I see deteriorating older growth (which points to a mobile nutrient like NPK) and smaller than normal new growth that twists slightly. Twisting can be a sign of Ca/Mg issues, but oddly Rotala plants tend to have new growth twisting in nitrogen deficiency as well. So at this point I'd up the dose of KNO3, maybe add a second dose at some point mid week. Especially since adding KNO3 has a low risk of causing a toxicity and your test kit often reads 5 ppm. I think it is quite plausible that it might be closer to 0 than 5 at least for part of the week which is why the weird growth tends to occur after water changes (because it ran out mid weekish and the deficiency symptoms don't start until a few days later around water change day).

I'd try adding a second dose of KNO3 at some point during the week and seeing if that helps. You should know within a week or so if it has worked.
 
#6 ·
i don't want to cause any argument here but i suggest adding different source of Nitrogen which use more than one kind of nitrogen source, i highly suggest making your own recipe using KNO3 and Urea, which is similar to Seachem. i was dosing heavy nitrate and plant did not respond to it very well until i started to dose Urea/NO3 dosing.
 
#8 ·
Urea is another decent source of nitrogen, though using it hasn't been widely adopted/tried out in the hobby.

I think you could give it a try if you wanted to, but you need to be aware that in tanks with pH above 7 it will degrade into ammonia which can trigger green water and possibly affect livestock. So use it if you want but be sure you are aware of the potential for something to go wrong.
 
#9 ·
+1 and do not go crazy with it, IME plant will consume 0.6-0.8 ppm of NH4 per day in heavily planted tank, i suggest starting with 1ppm NO3 and 0.3ppm urea in case you decide to use it for your tank. i have used urea for long time and tested it many time and i fully support it being superior to NO3 and you will see a boost to your plant growth.
 
#10 ·
I have no problem using urea in addition to KNO3 but I don't think you should lower the KNO3 dose, you can definitely add a second KNO3 dose during the week, and a little bit of urea as happi suggested, but lets be sure that it is nitrogen deficiency first before we swap out urea for KNO3.

I recently read a few studies that examined using ammonia as the only source of N for plants, and they showed that plants actually suffered toxicity like symptoms when using ammonia as the only source of N compared with plants grown in tanks using nitrate only. The researchers are unsure what the exact mechanism of damage is that causes the ammonia toxicity symptoms but it is quite a wide spread problem in agriculture and even in forests. Furthermore, ammonia toxicity seems to affect plants that are not acid tolerant more than it affects acid tolerant plants. The research I read did not cover plants grown using both KNO3 and ammonia so I do not know if they would also show toxicity symptoms or not if both forms of N are present.

Anyway, the point is, be careful when you add urea or ammonia because it is not as safe as KNO3 in terms of plant health though it does seem to be easier to take up and use in the plant and will also tend to give you more bushy looking plants. Moderation is the key.
 
#12 ·
I may have to give it a little more than a week, but I'll do my best. Going out of town for the holidays and having friends watch the house. Hoping they can stick to my schedule :)

Either way I'll provide updates along the way. Plan is to start with cutting back strongly on the CSM+B then will look at upping the Nitrogen if the problem continues.

Just to note - Did my standard 50% water change tonight and tested nitrates.
Test is showing 5ppm, which is what I usually get after my water changes.
 
#13 ·
From the photos it looks more likely to be a nitrogen deficiency than a CSM+B toxicity at the doses you have, so I'd recommend adding more nitrogen before you cut the CSM+B dose in half rather than the other way around, I think you'll see an improvement within a week if you do it that way.
 
#14 ·
So, coming back here to report progress, but it's pretty much pointless. While I was out of town the timer broke on my CO2 in the on position. Guessing it was only for a couple days, but that was more than enough time to wreak havoc in the tank. Lost a few fish and a shrimp and the swings in CO2 appear to have caused a bloom of BBA that I just don't want to deal with at this point. Phosphates also dropped to about 0.5ppm so I have GSA all over the place. :(

There seemed to be some minor improvement in the rotala growth, nothing impressive, but at this point I'm planning on a fresh start next week.
 
#15 ·
Sorry to hear about your loss of fish.

I don't think you should start over though, BBA is common in almost all fully established high tech tanks so restarting the tank won't really solve the problem. Just use flourish excel to spot treat it (with a syringe). You can also use gluteraldehyde instead since it is cheaper.

If possible you should take some pictures of the plants from the same position as before so we can see exactly how much progression there is. I'd love to find out.
 
#16 ·
Tank 2.0

Sorry Zapins, I couldn't resist the urge to rescape the tank.

Still having trouble, though I'm not sure it's the same problem as before.
Everything is new in the tank (soil, most plants) except for some staurogen and trident java fern I rescued from the previous scape.

The major equipment upgrade on this version is the CO2 diffusor. I had a DoAqua! diffusor on the last tank that I was never quite pleased with. It spit out large bubbles and I have a feeling it was giving me false readings on my drop checker with these bubbles collecting under the drop checker. The new one is a GLA Atomic and I dig it. A lot. Feel like I'm getting far better dispersion throughout the tank and a more accurate reading on the drop checker. The small amounts of BBA that came in on some of the old staurogen and some of the hardscape has not spread and I've been slowly spot dosing daily with 1ml of Excel.

Here's the current regimen/setup
Light: Aquasky - 8hrs
Aquasoil Amazonia
Filter: eheim2213
CO2: on 3hrs before lights, drop checker green 2 hours after lights, yellow green at end of photo period. (just switched to atomic diffusor this past thursday and have been tuning it up while watching fish and drop checker)
Macro Ferts are high right now to rule out low N & P
Seachem N: 2ml daily
KH2PO4: 3ml daily from a solution I made (thinking about going dry on this)
K2SO4: 1/64th every other day (though seems unnecessary)
CSM+B: 1/64th every other day (worried this is far too low now)
Seachem Iron: 1ml every other day
Seachem GH Booster: 1/4tsp per gallon @ water change
Baking Soda: 1/8tsp per gallon @ water change
Easy-Life water conditioner @ water change.
Weekly 50% water change (was doing these daily the first week of setup to combat ammonia leeching from aquasoil)
Water out of tap: 1kh, ~0gh, ~7.0ph

Flora/Fauna (not going to bother trying to spell these right haha!)
Hygrophila Pinnatifida (leaves just starting to go immersed)
Trident Java fern
Staurogen Repens
Rotala Rotundifolia
Rotala Nanjenshen
Bolbitis
Giant Hairgrass
Java Moss
Christmas Moss

5 blue rasboras
2 green fire tetra
3 oto
4 amano shrimp

Params at last water change
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
N: ~40-80ppm
P: ~5ppm
KH: 5
GH: 5
PH: ~6.4 toward end of day

New layout was in place about 2 weeks ago.

Everything was fine until I did my first trim (1 week ago). I'm thinking that in this case we're dealing with low CO2 (just switched diffusors and still tuning) and low micros.

Both rotala are showing poor growth and chlorosis/melt. The stems that are in direct blast of the CO2 have less extreme chlorosis, but new growth is very lime green/pale.

The rotala rotundifolia leaves melted after the first trim and new growth on some stems is transparent. Perhaps the first trim was too much for them to happen after only being in this tank for about 2 weeks? This symptom came on fast. We're talking 1-2 days after the trim.

And here's the pics:

Before the first trim




Post Trim








 
#17 ·
Your tank is 7.5 gallons.

While the new growth of the plants looks a lot like iron deficiency (pale new growth), the symptoms of iron toxicity are also pale new growth. This is because iron blocks sulfur use and sulfur deficiency is a pale looking plant (looks very similar to iron deficiency).

I think it is interesting that you are 0.15 ppm iron from CSM+B, 0.35 ppm from flourish iron every other day. Over the course of a week you are adding about 2.0 ppm iron. So you are actually adding a lot of iron, which makes me think a toxicity is more likely, especially since you have a lot fewer plants now than you did in your first post (less plants to absorb the iron). Also, since you have aquasoil you shouldn't need to be adding any fertilizer to the water column (except maybe potassium), especially not in the beginning of its usable life. The point of aquasoil is to reduce or eliminate the need to dose fertilizers at all.

The deteriorating old growth might be caused by the fact that you cut the plants and left the old stems planted. Over time, if you keep removing the tops and leaving the original old stems, the older leaves will deteriorate. This is likely just the normal aging process at work, though it could be that trimming the plants caused some amount of stress and high iron levels added to that stress. Leaves don't last forever especially on stem plants.

I suppose you have a choice. You can either add more iron than you are doing now and see if the problem is iron deficiency. Or you can do a few large water changes and cut the iron dosing down (by not using the SeaChem product but still using the CSM+B, or not using either of them). I'll leave it up to you which one you want to investigate first.
 
#20 ·
Well, 2 water changes and about 5 days later here's where we are at.

Went to every other day dosing on N+P. Today is the first day I dosed CSM+B. Cut the Flourish Iron completely. Growth is still slightly pale (more so in real life than photos show), but I'm pleased with where things are headed.











 
#29 ·
Well, 2 water changes and about 5 days later here's where we are at.

Went to every other day dosing on N+P. Today is the first day I dosed CSM+B. Cut the Flourish Iron completely. Growth is still slightly pale (more so in real life than photos show), but I'm pleased with where things are headed.
If many frequent water changes clean things up, growth improves, then it's a CO2 issue most likely.

You should observe the pH drop and try and use that as a relative measure.
LED's, well.....they are not the best for nice red coloration..........

Observations for CO2 adjustment based on the plant's growth, this is the key.
EI is just a simple method to make the ferts independent. So the rest of the issues will be things like CO2 mostly.

Maybe water changes and good general care etc.

Note, as mentioned by several here, GH is part of this, so adding GH booster will help a lot.

I have similar tap:




I dose 2x a week: KNO3, about 1.5 tsp, 3/4 tsp KH2PO4, maybe 2 Tablespoons of GH booster.

Then dose traces 4-6x a week.

I garden on this tank and trim, sell the plants etc, so I do water changes 2x a week and keep it clean and tidy, which folks who have issues really should be doing or if they have a newly set up or rescaped aquarium.
 
#22 ·
Curious about one thing - you mentioned several times a nitrate test at 5 ppm following the water change as evidence of sufficient nitrogen, but 5-10 ppm wouldn't be an unusual reading for many municipal water supplies. I would test my tap water before using the after water change result to convince myself that I was supplying adequate nitrogen.
 
#23 ·
This thread is very interesting, since I moved into EI a month ago, I have been experiencing the exact same problem with my Rotala Rotoundifolia. It used to grow pretty well (not very well though), then I moved into EI to improve my overall plant health, and whereas most of my other plants got better, Rotala turned dark, stunted growth at the tips as well as twisted growth. Also, some leaves turned a little translucent. At first I thought was a lack of micros, so I increased them without any difference... After 1 week I realized that I was dosing too low KNo3, so I increased that to reach a level of at least 30-40ppm a day to overrule any possible Nitrogen deficiency. All other nutrients are slightly in excess, but after 3 weeks my Rotala has not improved much, here are some pictures of it:







Note the tips of the last picture: they just don't grow! Even if I cut the stem at the top, the re-growth is stunted!

Rotala is not the only plant that didn't respond well to EI. Ambulias are not growing, and Alternanthera is still adapting replacing old leaves with new ones... At least I guess so, because all leaves are turning dark with holes after a while... There are some good leaves, but it grow very slowly. But maybe that is just a matter of time....

All other plants instead are growing very well: Higrophilas, Vallisnerias and Microswords have. I problem at all, instead they are growing and replicating like crazy.

I'd say that Rotala is the one that suffered the most, and I am still trying to understand why... Ideas?
 
#30 · (Edited)
I have the same exact problem. I did a dry start, then everything went well with EI for the first 2 months then everything started to go south. I'm still having issues with my rotala and I just tore out my Alternanthera. I dosed waaaaayyyyy above what normal EI calls for because it looked like some kind of deficiency but I don't think that was it. I've turned up my CO2 for the last week now and we'll see what happens.

Although I must say, that my duckweeds have pin holes in them. I'm positive that it's from potassium deficiency since they're not CO2 limited. So overall a bit lost, it would be great if someone can shed some light on this.

These are pictures just before I stated to diagnose my problem.

 
#24 ·
fablau I think you should start a help thread of your own, we can work through the possibilities there.

I think you likely have a different issue than oddnature.

What type are your 160w bulbs and how long ago were they changed out? Old bulbs may be an issue.
 
#26 ·
Water is quite soft out of tap 1KH and practically 0GH so I add enough baking soda and Flourish Equilibrium to bring it up to about 6KH and 6GH.
My vote is that this is your issue. Your soft water is ideal for Rotalas. You should only be reconstituting your GH to 5-6 degrees. Leave the KH alone and I'll bet those Rotalas will thank you.

Plants in general do not need KH. If you are really worried about it reconstitute it to 1 degree, but not 6 degrees. That's way too high.
 
#32 ·
Jalopy - what are your nitrate readings? How much do you dose? a lack of nitrates can cause holes in old growth and twisted new growth.

Potassium might be a possibility, but twisted new growth isn't related to that.

Calcium might cause the twisting but wouldn't cause the holes on the rotala.
 
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