[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by milesm

tom,

i take exception to your reply. seems pretty arrogant and haughty, but that's your style.

And yours is extremely personal and off topic.
You don't know me personally so do not pretend to

your response that "...I can afford pretty much anything I want..." though, is over the top.

It is?
The difference in cost between ADA AS and say Flourite or Eco complete are small. I can afford these for my tanks. Let's take my comment in the context from which is was taken now shall we?
Why you chose to pull up some personal insult garbage is really beyond me.

Many folks can and do afford these, does that make every one of those folks who do not, poor and second class? Get real.

Stick to plants and attack ideas, not folks.

The topic is and was ADA AS.
The context was specific about the other brands.
I also made mention of other cheaper options if you chose for whatever reason, cost, DIYer, want to do something different etc. Such choices are hardly made based upon economic consideration alone.

Aquarists can be cheap, but still very able to afford luxury items, say like the aquariums themselves. We chose to afford those and some might view us as haughty or arrogant also. But that's your style, attack a person personally and twist it to meet your own perception about me.

Nice.

not all of us are in the same financial situation.

Nor is Juan in the streets of Mexico who cannot even afford a tortillia every day. How do you think they feel? They might consider you an arrogant snotty American also. I've lived places like that, my family was on welfare and food stamps, I've been homeless for a few weeks. Life can suck. So what?

Does not mean I look down upon the homeless, the unlucky nor the rich. Only myself.

I still fail to see your point of argument, this about the difference between 26$ per bag for commericial substrates vs 24$ for the same for Flourite, vs 30$ for Eco complete. If someone wants to go plain sand, they can do that.

I've even stated all this.

Instead, you chose to expess your own personal issue, perhaps you are very insecure about affording things perhaps? That's your deal, do not let that spill over into the hobby. I help folks no matter what their finanical means.
Simply because I can afford any brand of substrate hardly makes me "rich", wealthy or beyond the means of many on this list.

Why you make such assumptions really reflects far more upon you.

not all of us share the same level of passion that you and others hold for the hobby. not all of us are willing to put as much money and time (a much more precious resource to me) as you do.

I guess you should go bash Amano, Jeff Senske or Karen Randall, heck Kyle, our administrator here or anyone else that has different priorities than yourself? I've never stated that you should have these same levels of passion, nor spend this much time, nor $. I will say you can if you want, you have the means if you wish. But that choice is really up to you.
I was homeless, I worked and got a ahead in the game of life and now have options.

You got some issues it seems, and for whatever reason, they decided to come spilling out here. However, it's not the topic of this thread

you've said many a time, the first question one must ask oneself is what does one want to get out of a planted tank?

i am very satisfied with my plain sand/turface substrate and ei methodology.

And I did suggest plain sand, Soil, SMS and have compared these to ADA AS.
I used DIY for a decade before going to Gas CO2, because I was "cheap". I could and can afford many things, but what I chose in another issue.
That's more a personal choice and less a financial one. I can say I cannot afford an aquarium and sink all my money into providing support for a business, or family. Most folks in the hobby are in this senario.

But a 5$ either way is not going to make or break me, nor most aquarists for a bag of sediment. If they feel it is, then there is sand. I made that pretty clear. I can afford either and why this is an issue for it really pointless other than a personal insecurity based on your own preception about someone you know next to nothing about. This is not about buying a car or house, this about a 5$ difference in cost for a luxury item none us "need".

i don't need to try the more demanding plants like tonina. i don't feel the need to rip out my newly established glosso lawn, and replace it with hc. would i like to? yeah, sure, why not. would i want to devote the TIME and money to do so? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

That's fine and you get no argument from me here.
Those are choices however.

Neither you, nor I nor Amano need aquatic plant tanks.
They are luxury items we chose to have and we chose to allocate finanaical resources to them.

Some trade offs might be worthwhie for you(like planted tank ownership and upkeep), while a higher tech Tonia tank might not be. I certainly have no issues with those trade offs, just your assumptions about myself and how you took it way out of context.

AS is $50 for a 9l bag--good enough for one 20 gal tank--bought either online or at a lfs. my way would cost ten times less. is AS 10 times better?

i guess a better question would be, am i "cheap"?

That's a question you have to personally answer. I'm cheap
But I'm willing to pay more for things I think are worth the trade off such as ADA AS. Do I need the nice ADA filters?
No, I'll never buy one even if I had the $ likely.
Can I afford one? Yes.
But I cannot justify the trade off between cost and what I get in return.
50$ a bag?

It's 39.99$ a bag at the LFS here and Jeff sell it's 26$ a bag on line, Flourite goes for 13$ a bag or so, EC about 15$.

Since these are all web prices, they are comparable.
Man folks use these sediments for planted tanks.
Merely because you cannot justify the trade offs and we chose to afford these and the $ to do does not make us haughty nor arrogant.

Can I afford a planted tank? Yes.
Would I say everyone is cheap merely because they do not run out and buy ADA AS?

Never said that.
I gave options and I discuss trade offs.
You can afford the aquarium which is a choice and a luxury item, you apparently can afford that as well.

Some suggested it cost too much. No more than other commericial brands.
Others have long argued for plain sand.
It can be done certainly.

Perhaps the trade off is not worth it to you, you like sand.
It's all I used for 20 years myself.
I had no options back then. I could not justify the trade offs when Flourite came out either. Nor ADA AS. But I tried it and found I liked it and like using it in my tanks. It became worth the trade off.

Simply because someone has another passion, or is more passionate about something and makes different choices than you does not imply they at fault or better/worse than you.

Regards,
Tom Barr