The "One-Two Punch" Whole Tank Algae Treatment - Page 2 - The Planted Tank Forum

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post #16 of 460 (permalink) Old 01-04-2013, 05:51 PM
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VOTE: +1
to be added to the algae resource guide
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post #17 of 460 (permalink) Old 01-04-2013, 06:29 PM
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caution / concern on my part from past trials.
1 US tablespoon = 14.7867648 ml
Recommended here is 4tbs/10g or 6ml/g

Treating external fish problems I've used and posted dosing H2O2 @ 10ml/g for a fish bath.
Contact with organics & time are indeed what break it down not light just as you posted.

1 US teaspoon = 4.92892159 ml
2 teaspoons of H2O2 per gallon is perfect for the scaled fish treatment I needed. Problem though with scaleless fish like loaches along with L144 and LFABN (Ancistrus) not tolerating it well at all (will jump right out of the tank).

just FYI because 6ml/g isn't that much lower than what I know caused problems for some of my fish.

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post #18 of 460 (permalink) Old 01-04-2013, 08:33 PM
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Thanks for the method, I tried it yesterday, and it looks like the BBA is fryed. A few tricks I tried.

You can use a cup to manually create extra flow during the 15 minute H2O2 treatment.

If you take some of your old water out (just clean water off the surface) and set it aside before treating the tank you can 1) increase the effectiveness of your tanks pumps + filters. 2)dilute the H2O2 concentration faster after the treatment, with less of a shock in parameters from a big water change. For example, take 5 gallons out of your 10g, now treat the remaining 5 gallons with 2 tbs H2O2, then after the treatment, take out 2.5 more gallons (discard), leaving one 1tbs worth of H2O2 in the tank. Add the old tank water back, and 2.5 gallons of new water. Gives you the H2O2 dilution post treatment of a 75% water change, while only doing 25%.
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post #19 of 460 (permalink) Old 01-04-2013, 10:17 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wkndracer View Post
caution / concern on my part from past trials.
1 US tablespoon = 14.7867648 ml
Recommended here is 4tbs/10g or 6ml/g
This is a valid concern. Some thoughts on it:

With vigorous flow, the H2O2 concentration does not remain at the initial dose for the entire treatment time. It will be reduced not just in reaction with algae, but also quite rapidly at first in easier reactions with omnipresent bacterial films and organic wastes. So this cannot be compared exactly to a medicinal dip, or any H2O2 treatment where little or no flow is present.

Because of this, in a tank with good flow, the dosage has an exponential rather than a linear effect. Too small a dose, and it will be so rapidly consumed that it has little effect on algae. Too large a dose, and after easily reacted materials are depleted, the concentration stays high enough for the remaining time that fauna may be adversely affected. Tricky, eh?

I've tried many different dosages and treatment times, and I believe my recommendations to be the "sweet spot".

Increase to 6 tbsp./10G for 30 minutes caused lethargy and hanging around the surface in some fish, though there were no deaths and all symptoms disappeared within a day.

Except for the above increased dose, I've had no problems with my golden and weather loach, which I didn't think to mention in my original post because I don't consider them particularly H2O2 sensitive. The crazy things insist on playing in H2O2 spot treatments, seemingly without harm!

Still, if anyone prefers or feels more comfortable with a lower dose, by all means use it. The effectiveness will be somewhat reduced in my experience, but still adequate for anything but tough algae. The efficacy of this treatment is not due only to higher H2O2 dosage, but to good flow and combination with Excel.
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post #20 of 460 (permalink) Old 01-04-2013, 10:18 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the method, I tried it yesterday, and it looks like the BBA is fryed. A few tricks I tried.
Thanks for the report and tips!
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post #21 of 460 (permalink) Old 01-05-2013, 12:07 AM
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Do you have a recommendation on how much flow for a 10 gal? That way we may have a little more success in coping your results. For my 17 gal I could manage 360 gph or maybe 710 gph, would that be enough, too much? I also don't won't to hurt my fish with the high flow. Thanks for the great write up!
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post #22 of 460 (permalink) Old 01-05-2013, 04:16 AM
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"The crazy things insist on playing in H2O2 spot treatments, seemingly without harm!"



I remember having a weather loach as a kid and naming it "Freakshow" or something because of its erratic behavior. A really fun fish, though.
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post #23 of 460 (permalink) Old 01-05-2013, 04:24 AM Thread Starter
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Do you have a recommendation on how much flow for a 10 gal? That way we may have a little more success in coping your results. For my 17 gal I could manage 360 gph or maybe 710 gph, would that be enough, too much? I also don't won't to hurt my fish with the high flow. Thanks for the great write up!
Higher is better. Beyond that, it's hard to suggest any meaningful lower and upper limits. I can at least provide the tank setups used for treatments.

The majority were done in a 46G bowfront, with between 1,320GPH (Koralia clone) and 1,620GPH (Koralia + Penguin 1140 powerhead).

Some others were done in a 10G, dual Aquaclear 20 HOBs with media removed, rated for 200GPH combined.

As for fish safety, if they're stuck to the powerhead intake and can't get free, it may be too much flow. Seriously though, they can tolerate very high flows for 15 minutes. Much higher than they could tolerate continuously, as fatigue eventually sets in from fighting the current.
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post #24 of 460 (permalink) Old 01-06-2013, 05:02 AM
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I haven't tried this yet as I have no algae currently, but this should maybe be in the discussion for a sticky if the results are positive enough.
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post #25 of 460 (permalink) Old 01-06-2013, 06:56 PM
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Datapoint:

I used this protocol yesterday and some of the BBA is turning reddish. Not all though, so perhaps this will require a couple of treatments. I will space them out by at least a week or two.

I did not turn off the filter and I did not take out the media. As predicted, the biofilter took a hit and I had some ammonia this morning. Nothing that a 50% water change didn't fix though. Next time I will unplug the filter and rely only on the powerhead for flow.

Fauna are fine although they did show a bit of distress around the 13 minute mark. My livestock consists of:
Cardinal tetra
rummynose
ottocinclus
bushynose pleco
Congo tetra
apistogramma cacuatoides
kuhli loach
cherry shrimp
assassin snail
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post #26 of 460 (permalink) Old 01-06-2013, 09:11 PM
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Since some of the action is based on the materials reacting with organic matter, would there be a benefit to cleaning the tank as thoroughly as possible before treating? At least a good deep gravel vac for tanks with loose substrate.
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post #27 of 460 (permalink) Old 01-06-2013, 09:48 PM Thread Starter
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Since some of the action is based on the materials reacting with organic matter, would there be a benefit to cleaning the tank as thoroughly as possible before treating? At least a good deep gravel vac for tanks with loose substrate.
An interesting idea. Though I'm not sure how much of an effect it will actually have on the treatment.

Flow doesn't penetrate very well into substrate, even if loose. For this reason, if you have algae growing on the substrate, I don't recommend turning it over prior to an algicidal treatment.

If you have lots of mulm on the surface of the substrate, then removing it would result in less H2O2 depletion.

Of course, if this is the case then a gravel vac is just good tank husbandry, regardless of treatment. Same goes if you have excessive buildup of mulm in deep substrate where there are no plant roots. No chemical treatment replaces proper tank maintenance.

On a tangent, sometimes I get buildup of mulm in the substrate visible from the front glass, in areas where gravel vacs aren't practical because there's plants and roots in the way. If it gets too ugly I measure out 2 tbsp. per 10G of H2O2, and inject it deep into the substrate along the front with a syringe, in approximately equal applications every inch or two. The mulm, broken down and more readily absorbed, disappears within a few days. You'd think this might burn the roots, but oddly I've seen no negative effects. Except for Marimo balls. Move them at least 6" away from the area, the prolonged exposure and high concentration will burn their bottoms.
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post #28 of 460 (permalink) Old 01-06-2013, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by DarkCobra View Post
This is a valid concern. Some thoughts on it:

With vigorous flow, the H2O2 concentration does not remain at the initial dose for the entire treatment time. It will be reduced not just in reaction with algae, but also quite rapidly at first in easier reactions with omnipresent bacterial films and organic wastes. So this cannot be compared exactly to a medicinal dip, or any H2O2 treatment where little or no flow is present.

Because of this, in a tank with good flow, the dosage has an exponential rather than a linear effect.
Both of these react fairly rapidly, peroxide is completely gone in less than 1 hour and most of it gone in 5 minutes. I have a Glut test kit, just have not gotten around to making the decay graph curves in a REAL planted tank, I would describe is more as a non linear curve, than exponential.

You'd need very good current to make sure things are homogenous if you took a sample of glut, but you could take several with a turkey baster type of syringe at various points. It'll last longer than H2O2.

If someone wants, I have a spare Glut Hach Test avail
You'll need a hot plate and a stirrer as well.






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post #29 of 460 (permalink) Old 01-08-2013, 01:05 AM
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Update:

Just spotted first dead cherry shrimp, while other cherries are still moving around.
Vals are looking a little worse for wear - starting to melt.
The fish look fine, eat well.

Ammonia just tested at 0ppm

BBA is taking a good hit.
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post #30 of 460 (permalink) Old 01-08-2013, 10:18 AM Thread Starter
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Sorry to hear about the cherry. Hopefully there will be no more deaths. Though I'd consider even one death to be an indication they may need to be treated as a special case, with reduced dosage.

The vals aren't a big surprise, as they're notably sensitive to Excel. Were your vals already pre-acclimated to Excel, or is this their first recent exposure? Which Excel dosage did you use?

Looking forward to further updates.
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