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Fighting Ich

4K views 28 replies 8 participants last post by  bigbadjon 
#1 · (Edited)
I have a few questions about fighting Ich in a tank.
1) Is Kordon Rid Fungus effective against Ich?
2) How about Kordon Ich Attack?
3) Are these products ^^^ the same thing?
4) Maracyn & Maracyn II?
5) When treating any illnesses with meds, would I need to pull my Purigen out of my filter?
6) Are any/all of these treatments shrimp/snail safe?
7) Will these be counter-productive at temps >84 degrees?

Thanks.
 
#2 ·
Maracyn and Maracyn II are antibiotics, and won't kill ich. Not sure about the others.

I just use heat to treat ich. Though you need a heater that can raise the temp high enough (the ones that have pre-set temps won't work, and you need one with enough power to keep the tank at your target temp.) At 86F, ich stops reproducing, and at 89.5F it's killed outright. Increase aeration/circulation if you can, both to oxygenate the water and to make sure there aren't cool spots in the tank where ich can survive. Keep the temperature raised for at least 10 days, even if the ich seems to be gone.

Large daily water changes can also help, by reducing the parasite load.

Some plants might not be happy at the high temps, but IME they recover once the treatment is done.
 
#4 ·
Snails will be fine.

Shrimp...if you have delicate types, it might affect them. I've had ghost shrimp, bamboo shrimp, amanos, and cherry shrimp, and it sometimes gets hotter than 90F in the summer, and it didn't seem to bother them. I've heard CRS don't like it warm, though.

Raise and lower the temperature slowly. IME, sudden changes in temperature stress out shrimp more than the actual temperature.
 
#7 ·
Not sure what species your rainbow shrimp are. Many different shrimp are sold under that name.

I think they will probably be okay, since most of them are from India or Malaysia, where it gets quite warm.

Raise the temperature gradually, and keep an eye on the fish and shrimp to make sure it's not distressing them.

And if you do water changes during this period, make sure the new water is as warm as your tank water. Don't want to give the ich any reprieve.
 
#10 ·
1) Is Kordon Rid Fungus effective against Ich?

No

2) How about Kordon Ich Attack?

Yes, malachicte green and other chems.. not good for plants, bb, inverts though

3) Are these products ^^^ the same thing?

No

4) Maracyn & Maracyn II?

No, this is erythromycin.

5) When treating any illnesses with meds, would I need to pull my Purigen out of my filter?

Yes and charcoal

6) Are any/all of these treatments shrimp/snail safe?

Kordon Ich Attack, no.

7) Will these be counter-productive at temps >84 degrees?

Not so much counter-productive, as causing extra stress to livestock
 
#12 ·
@randym is offering good advice so far. My suggestions to add on to what's already been said:

1) IF you do decide to treat with ANY medication it needs either copper or malachite green to kill protazoan parasites. Both of these are bad news for nitrifying bacteria and shrimp. Malachite green is bad news for these AND plants.

2) IMO/E heat(w/ and w/o salt) has ALWAYS worked in treating ich for me. But, I keep heat(+/- salt) treatment for going for 2-3 wks(14-21 days) after last visible cysts. Most people who don't successfully treat Ich with heat+/-salt don't do THIS.

3) As mentioned, daily WCs(50%) are a necessity!! Plenty of clean water will help to prevent secondary infections, increase aeration, lower TDS/nitrates(increased temps = more biological activity/raised metabolism), remove free swimming stages, substrate/hardscape vacuuming will also remove fallen cysts.
 
#16 ·
2) IMO/E heat(w/ and w/o salt) has ALWAYS worked in treating ich for me. But, I keep heat(+/- salt) treatment for going for 2-3 wks(14-21 days) after last visible cysts. Most people who don't successfully treat Ich with heat+/-salt don't do THIS.
Agreed. You have to be patient. I know that's hard, when your fish are sick, but whether you use heat or medication, ich is only vulnerable in the free-swimming stage. You have to keep treating until all the parasites cycle through that stage.

Also, it may look worse before it gets better. When you raise the temperature, you speed up the ich life cycle, and you may see more spots on the fish. Do not panic. Stay the course. In a few days the spots will start to disappear.
 
#13 ·
The thing I keep in mind about using meds for ich is the way they can totally wreck my tank. I go for as low level treatments as I find actually work. In the case of ich, that is heat and/or salt. Those are two I know will not harm the good bacteria that I fight so hard to preserve. If I happen to use too much or the wrong med and wipe out my bacteria, it can send me into a real crisis when I started out with a minor ich invasion.
 
#15 ·
@PlantedRich I agree. Like I said, any Ich "treatment" that will actually kill the protozoa will kill bb, inverts(MG and Cu) and plants(MG). If the "product" DOESN'T contain either Cu or MG, then it's useless against Ich as a cure.
 
#17 ·
1) Yes Kordon Rid Fungus is effective against Ick

2) Kordon Ich Attack is also effective against Ick

3) To the best of my knowledge/research, the two Kordon products mentioned are both exactly the same meds/ingredients and just have different labels for marketing purposes.

4) As far as I know, Maracyn and Maracyn 2 (not effective in high pH/GH) only treat some bacterial diseases, and not parasitic (which ick is a parasite).

5) I know Purigen is different that activated carbon/charcoal, but not sure if it strips out meds or not, best to remove it just in case.

6) I know Kordon Rid Fungus/Ich Attack (not Kordon Rid Ich), is safe for plants, inverts and is very well tolerated by fish.

7) Regarding temps, I am not quite sure, as far as the med itself, it shouldn't be rendered useless at those temps. However, raising the temp will speed up the life cycle of ick, which can mean the ick will potentially die faster during treatment OR it could mean the ick will reproduce faster and worsen the condition of sick fish faster if the med isn't strong enough.

With that said, when I use Kordon Ich Attack, I don't raise temp at all. Usually safer/natural meds are not as strong as those other harsh chemicals out there, so it is a trade off, safer for the fish, but not as fast/strong acting, so don't expect the fastest cure. If I were to raise the temp, I personally wouldn't do so until after the second day or so or treating, just to give the meds sometime to take effect before speeding up the ick cycle.

This stuff works great and fast for mild to moderate cases of ick outbreak. For severe infestations, again the med not being as strong as other harsh chemicals, it can take a while longer treating with natural meds, but I still believe they are the best option. If you had a fish seriously covered in ick cysts, it would be super stressed and weak, and adding a harsh med on top of that would almost certainly kill the fish. With the safer, very well tolerated (minimal to no added stress), natural meds, they will take longer since they aren't as "strong", but being gentle on the fish will give it the best chance of pulling through.


From my personal experience with the heat and salt method for ich, my fish didn't tolerate it well at all (pretty stressed, I am pretty sure from the treatment, not the ick itself). I followed directions to a T, tried it for over 2 weeks, plus I vacuumed daily, while it treated the ick, it didn't completely cure it for me. Not to mention nearly all my plants died. I have not tried the +86*F with no salt method because my fish didn't seem to tolerate the high heat very well (I did provide extra aeration, I guess I could have pushed it and they might have survived, but I didn't like seeing them stress out). Didn't have any inverts at the time so I can't comment.

Just my experiences and opinions though, yours/others may vary.
So if it were me, I would definitely use Kordon Ich Attack, even over the salt + heat or heat-only methods, but it's your call, just keep a eye on how the livestock deal with it, if you kill the very ones you are trying to save, well then, mission not accomplished haha.

IMPORTANT! Regardless of whichever method/treatment you use, make sure to treat for at least a Extra 4 or more days after all visible signs of ick cysts (those visible white spots) have disappeared (as other life stages of ick are still present).
 
#18 ·
I have to disagree @WaterLife and recant my own statement on Kordon Ich Attack, I had it confused with Kordon Rid Ich+

Excerpt from my response(on Facebook) to a "conversation" on treating Ich with Kordon Ich Attack(remarks for the context of this post in [brackets]):

"Can anyone explain or, direct me to a page PROVING Kordon Ich Attack's effect on Ichthyophthirius multifillis or any other species of Ich? From what I have read the active ingredient in this product is a naphthoquinones, a group of diverse "plant extracts"[think the same/similar type of plant "oils" in Pima/Melafix]. This particular one happens to be effective on actually killing four genuses of protazoans only; Plasmodia, Toxoplasma(both phyla Apicomplexa) Trypanosoma and Leishmania(both phyla Euglenozoa). Ich does happen to be a member of Apicomplexa but, I have yet to see any study or reports of the process by which this chemical affects any Ichthyophthirius sp. Reading Kordon's site they never actually state what specific naphthoquinone(s) used and repeatedly refer to this products PREVENTATIVE properties and suggest using it in accord with Rid-Ich. Sorry, not convinced. Any medication that can actually kill Ich is not safe for inverts or, nitrifying bacteria and many are harmful to plants and some[plant oils] irritating to certain fish."
 
#19 ·
@HDBenson

I don't know the science behind it (as there hasn't been much research on it), but I have used it on at least two Ich outbreaks that I can remember and it has worked. I am positive it was Ich and I did nothing else that could of contributed to the cure of the ich outbreak besides treating with Kordon Ich Attack. I didn't raise the temp, or lower the temp. I didn't add salt, or garlic (not even in their food). I didn't even vacuum or do more water changes (still only did once a week or every other week). No UV. Nothing. Kept everything the same, only difference was dosing Kordon Ich Attack. Other than my water parameters staying at safe levels (like they should be), I've done nothing else that would have possibly cured the ick, especially within only a one-two week span.

So I couldn't tell you exactly how it works, but I can't deny the results. I've heard of others having success as well.

Here is some "scientific" info of what little data there is
Under "NAPHTHOQUINONES" Organic Aquarium Treatments; Melaluca, Pimenta, Naphthoquinones
Novalek, Inc. - Kordon Ich Attack Disease Inhibitor - 1gal Says it prevents and treats single-celled eternal diseases and binds with cytoplasmic structures within the cell of the disease
More scientific info on Napththoquinones Antimicrobial properties of Lawsonia inermis (henna): a review. - Free Online Library


Hey, I don't know how it works, but I can't argue with the results I've experienced (worked and very gentle on the fish, plants and inverts -beneficial bacteria as well).

I have had bad experiences with Formalin products (like Kordon Rid Ich+ and Mardel QuICK Cure), they are very strong and so they do work fast for ick, but too harsh on fish, usually killing the sickest fish (even had it kill "sensitive/scalesless" loaches with no ick symptoms, wanted to treat whole tank, did half dose as well). Not safe for plants or inverts.

Malachite Green/Copper alone worked well on ick and was decently tolerated by fish, but not so great for plants and a no-no for inverts. And it can stay within the aquarium for quite a long time, making it unsafe for inverts.

On one severe ick outbreak (new fish I wasn't aware had ick, and I didn't pay much attention to that tank since I have so many and by the time I realized it, there was quite a lot of ick cysts) I used Kordon Ich Attack, it didn't seem to be as effective on this severe case, and so I decided to use a harsher med to treat it. Bad idea...I used Mardel QuICK Cure (formalin, malachite green) at half dose, but it ended up killing half of the fish in quarantine. I am sure the deaths were largely in part of the harsh med and not mainly because of the damage from the ick itself. Wasn't a chemical reaction with Ich Attack either. Reason I think so is because the fish, while heavily infested with visible ick, they didn't seem to be in too much distress from the ick, but shortly after adding the harsh meds (half dose!) stress signs would clearly be present and by the next day the fish would be dead. Looking back on it, I blame myself for the Ich Attack "ineffectiveness" because it was helping, and I know better that severe cases would take longer to treat with "weaker" meds, and I was still just treating with the recommended dose, maybe severe cases could use a double dose. I guess I just got impatient from the ick not clearing up fast enough which is why I used a harsh med instead. My goal was to keep the infected fish alive and to cure it, not to kill it. With the little stress they were in, I should have just stuck with the longer treatment process using the "weaker" Ich Attack and I am sure the fish would have survived. Might cost more as it would need more doses, but it would mean a saved life (regardless how much monetary value the fish has). I've learned my lesson.

Just speaking my experiences. Maybe pH or whatever water chemistry levels have an effect on the meds effectiveness or ineffectiveness?
I have also heard that higher pH/GH naturally aids the fishes' immune system through osmoregulation/redox (not sure how high that has to be, but my pH is generally around 7.4, d*GH 6).
 
#20 ·
@PlantedRich, @randym, @HDBenson, and @WaterLife....THANKS, you guys! This is great info. Let me present this scenario that I have found myself in. I had a fish with what looked like columnaris(another thread) that I treated with Jungle Labs Fungus Clear (bc that was all that was locally available to me). I also found some Kordon Rid Fungus yesterday at my local Petco that I purchased to fight the columnaris also. Anyway, as I'm treating this with the Jungle Fungus Clear, I get to water change day(after 4 days). After changing the water, I noticed that 3 or 4 of my otos have ich spots all over them(hence this thread).....no spots on any other fish. I don't have a QT, but since I see spots, the whole tank is infected, right? As I type this, I'm preparing to do a weekly water change and start adjusting the temp to combat ich. I also want to continue treating the columnaris, even though the main carrier passed away sometime today while I was at work. Is it feasible to continue treating with the Kordon Rid Fungus while raising the temp to combat the ich? Yes.....the struggle has been real so far!:laugh2:
 
#25 ·
I thought I read somewhere that Kordon Rid Fungus is effective against columnaris? I might be mistaken on this though :frown2:

Columnaris is a Gram negative bacterial infection caused by Flavobacteria columnare.

Some meds do cross over, and help against both bacterial and fungal diseases.

Many packages are labeled for 'fungus' diseases, but are actually targeting bacterial issues that may be confused for fungus diseases.

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Maracyn (Erythromycin) and Maracyn II (Minocycline) are often dosed together against bacterial diseases. Good choice against Columnaris. Kanamycin is a stronger antibiotic, works well against Columanris.
I would treat for Columnaris in a hospital tank.

Melafix and Pimafix may have some activity against bacterial and fungal problems while they are still on the outside of the fish. They do not enter the fishes' system to treat infections that have moved internally.

Ich, once it has been discovered in a tank, is indeed all over the tank. There are 2 basic techniques to treating:
1) Treat in the tank, perhaps removing shrimp, snails or other livestock that cannot get Ich, but may be sensitive to the meds.
2) Remove all All ALL ALL fish from the tank. This removes ALL hosts from the Ich, and the Ich in the main tank dies. In the mean time, treat the fish in one or more hospital tanks. You could separate the fish according to which treatment they tolerate best, if that seems best. You could separate the fish that are showing signs of Columnaris, but not Ich, and concentrate on treating these with antibiotics.

Some fish, under stress from Ich, are more susceptible to other infections. Watch for bacterial or fungal diseases while you are treating for Ich, especially since you know something else is active in the tank.
If you need to combine treatments, make sure that both medicines are labeled for use with each other.
I didn't have any Maracyn locally, but I have some Maracyn and Maracyn II on order.....should be here around 12/4.
 
#24 ·
Columnaris is a Gram negative bacterial infection caused by Flavobacteria columnare.

Some meds do cross over, and help against both bacterial and fungal diseases.

Many packages are labeled for 'fungus' diseases, but are actually targeting bacterial issues that may be confused for fungus diseases.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maracyn (Erythromycin) and Maracyn II (Minocycline) are often dosed together against bacterial diseases. Good choice against Columnaris. Kanamycin is a stronger antibiotic, works well against Columanris.
I would treat for Columnaris in a hospital tank.

Melafix and Pimafix may have some activity against bacterial and fungal problems while they are still on the outside of the fish. They do not enter the fishes' system to treat infections that have moved internally.

Ich, once it has been discovered in a tank, is indeed all over the tank. There are 2 basic techniques to treating:
1) Treat in the tank, perhaps removing shrimp, snails or other livestock that cannot get Ich, but may be sensitive to the meds.
2) Remove all All ALL ALL fish from the tank. This removes ALL hosts from the Ich, and the Ich in the main tank dies. In the mean time, treat the fish in one or more hospital tanks. You could separate the fish according to which treatment they tolerate best, if that seems best. You could separate the fish that are showing signs of Columnaris, but not Ich, and concentrate on treating these with antibiotics.

Some fish, under stress from Ich, are more susceptible to other infections. Watch for bacterial or fungal diseases while you are treating for Ich, especially since you know something else is active in the tank.
If you need to combine treatments, make sure that both medicines are labeled for use with each other.
 
#26 ·
There are all kinds of fishkeepers and that leaves room for all kinds of reactions when disease is found in the tank. Step one is to keep things so well that disease doesn't get in the tank but that doesn't always work so we have to move on to step two. This is where we each have our own level of what makes sense. I grew up on and around farms which leaves me with a totally different outlook on livestock including fish. I have a few fish who are special but many are not that expensive nor special in any way. I often have too many of those who are breeding. When I find disease in the tank, I have a far different outlook than some. Many of the diseases we see are difficult to diagnose so we are often at a loss for what treatment will work so we may run through several and none of them work. Over the years I've gradually moved further and further away from trying medicines for treating diseases. The odds of success are just too small and the expense too great for me to bother with meds.
While it seems cruel, I just do not find it logical to keep a fish alive for a few days longer once they reach a certain point. It also doesn't seem logical to use several very expensive and painful meds which may not work.
If it is not a "special" fish or one which is hard to replace, I simply move on and do not bother ordering meds. I have watched too many friends and relatives linger on in terrible conditions that are obviously terminal. I hope that somebody will grant me a pass and let me go if I reach that stage.
Give me a quick and painless death over dragging out the suffering. I do the same for my fish.
 
#28 ·
At this point, my life is precious but for a couple friends and relatives, death looks very good. If I reach the stage where I try to burn the house down to get rid of the person who looks like my spouse but is somebody else--- please just end it! When you no longer know the people who love you and don't know you are wearing somebody else's teeth, life is no longer precious but just daily agony.
 
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