Curing ich??? - Page 2 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #16 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by CrypticLifeStyle View Post
I forget, think it was a study duke university did which I guess backs why products say up to 5 weeks. I assume length of time varys tank per tank. The 3 times I dealt with it over 20 years definitely took over 2 weeks, i have a tetra tank that ive been battling for almost 2 months, its a little ridiculous. but I have only done the high heat/salt method once as I couldn't handle seeing my fish miserable in it after a few days.

This article was updated in January. It gives another view.
http://www.americanaquariumproducts....arium_Ich.html

The one I'm more familiar with.http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ich.php
Karl is saying about the same as the rest of us.

These tomites move about looking for a host, which they must find within 2 to 3 days at 75° F (24° C) or they may die.

Unless you keep Koi I reckon after 14 of treatment they've snuffed it.

That said, I'm finding new studies that suggest there are several strains of Ich, if not species.

Luckily I've never ever had it in my tanks (touch wood), but I had to treat or advise on my friends tanks.


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post #17 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 03:22 PM
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Raise and maintain temperature to 84-85 degrees
Added 3 tablespoons of salt per 20 gallons
˝ dose Rid Ich Plus
Introduced a 13 watt submersible UV sterilizer
Fed flake and pellets soaked in metronidazole twice daily

25% water change every 48 hours


I'd be surprised if fish eat much food laced with flagyl, it tastes like #%$^ and most fish stop eating anyway. Also, it's only a prodrug in flagellates so dumping into the column would be better.

I'd have to do all this in a hospital tank.
That would nuke my tanks, kill the ich but kill just about everything else too.


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post #18 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 03:42 PM
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Yes to strains which I don't find shocking. Parasites evolve obviously, and I feel like my tetra tank has one of them. I did high heat and salt for 2 weeks. 80% water change each week followed with real deep substrate vacuums. Didn't go away. Did a 3 time treatment with mardel bio spheres and high heat. Seemed to work. 2 weeks later it was back. Did a rid ich treatment, didn't work. So here we are at that point a month in, no new species put in the tank fish, snail or plant.

Now what I did for the past 4 weeks was did another 3x treatment with mardel biosphere for the fish, did a 90% water change 48 hours after the last treatment. Then hooked up a UV, and been using the rid ich herbal treatment. Always with weekly 80% water changes, always with deep substrate vacuums. Think I defeated it, no visible signs, however a few fish scrapped themselves against the sand the other day, and not using salt which can irritate and cause same behavior I'm thinking its still around, maybe deep in the substrate, so thinking removing it all for a week or 2.

This strain I'm experiencing has been highly resilient for sure. I think even with projected life cycles being short, substrate factors, and fish immunity play roles in real world situations. Can be a few days, a week or in this case much longer. It has definitely impressed me other then annoy me lol I also learned fish can become immune to ich as well which is another impressive factor.

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post #19 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 03:50 PM
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Yes to strains which I don't find shocking. Parasites evolve obviously, and I feel like my tetra tank has one of them. I did high heat and salt for 2 weeks. 80% water change each week followed with real deep substrate vacuums. Didn't go away. Did a 3 time treatment with mardel bio spheres and high heat. Seemed to work. 2 weeks later it was back. Did a rid ich treatment, didn't work. So here we are at that point a month in, no new species put in the tank fish, snail or plant.

Now what I did for the past 4 weeks was did another 3x treatment with mardel biosphere for the fish, did a 90% water change 48 hours after the last treatment. Then hooked up a UV, and been using the rid ich herbal treatment. Always with weekly 80% water changes, always with deep substrate vacuums. Think I defeated it, no visible signs, however a few fish scrapped themselves against the sand the other day, and not using salt which can irritate and cause same behavior I'm thinking its still around, maybe deep in the substrate, so thinking removing it all for a week or 2.

This strain I'm experiencing has been highly resilient for sure. I think even with projected life cycles being short, substrate factors, and fish immunity play roles in real world situations. Can be a few days, a week or in this case much longer. It has definitely impressed me other then annoy me lol
I'd want to give lfs that gave it to me a smack in the mouth.


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post #20 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 03:57 PM
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Lol its what I get for breaking all my rules for not buying chain store fish. As they are farmed in big outdoor ponds in Florida I would love to grab water sample from them, and run a analysis. In such prolific environments in a high heat state, high heat evolution, and other things are definitely I think are taking place.

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post #21 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 03:57 PM
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I use hertana for two weeks or so although it suggests ten days. It has worked for me. Plant and invert safe so it takes a little longer
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post #22 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 04:13 PM
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I'd be surprised if fish eat much food laced with flagyl, it tastes like #%$^ and most fish stop eating anyway. Also, it's only a prodrug in flagellates so dumping into the column would be better.
Papwalker,

I find this interesting. I have read many articles that stated treating the water with metro is useless, as it is fractionally absorbed from the water column.

I also had the opportunity to ask Paul Loiselle about this at a lecture of his I attended and he too agreed that metro is best administered orally and dosing the aquarium is basically a waste.

As an aside, the fish I am currently treating all greedily ate the metro laced food but I should have mentioned that both the flake and pellets used are NLS Thera A with garlic, so perhaps the garlic masks the bitter metro.

I do not mean to be confrontational and am just indicating experiences I have gathered. Sorry, I did not intend to hijack this thread.

Regards,
-Gary
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post #23 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 04:25 PM
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We're all hijacking but I think sharing our experiences, and knowledge will help the op as well as ourselves. Ich threads come up all the time, but this one is becoming more in depth which is good.

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post #24 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 04:58 PM
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Papwalker,

I find this interesting. I have read many articles that stated treating the water with metro is useless, as it is fractionally absorbed from the water column.

I also had the opportunity to ask Paul Loiselle about this at a lecture of his I attended and he too agreed that metro is best administered orally and dosing the aquarium is basically a waste.

As an aside, the fish I am currently treating all greedily ate the metro laced food but I should have mentioned that both the flake and pellets used are NLS Thera A with garlic, so perhaps the garlic masks the bitter metro.

I do not mean to be confrontational and am just indicating experiences I have gathered. Sorry, I did not intend to hijack this thread.

Regards,
-Gary
Scrounging around I can't really find many cases where infected fish will eat. Maybe the NLS is too tasty/ (I use it too)
From memory flagyl metabolises into a DNA destroying agent in susceptible organisms. I forget the mechanism but it's likely on the web.

If anti-flagellates are useless in the column then likely many treatments are a waste of money, and that may well be the case.

What you're saying is that flagyl will kill the trophozoite on the fish, presumable while it feeds on fish skin soup.
This obviously requires protist toxic levels to be in the fish epithelium for the short duration of that stage. This build-up would take time. Perhaps too long.

This would be a breakthrough to the aquaculture industry. Remembering you are killing the organism prior to the multiplication stage. Thus an opportunity for prophylaxis arises (and all the resistance issues)

The journals however seem silent on this. It would also mean the the free swimming theronts absorbs nothing from the column or at least not in the manner that counts, at least for flagyl.

I imagine a very easy experiment to do.

Just reading Some Seachem stuff. The issue with flagyl in the column seems related to solubility not uptake.
They recommend their PolyGuard with sulfathiazole.


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Last edited by papwalker; 03-19-2013 at 05:24 PM. Reason: new info
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post #25 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 05:27 PM
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Just to share in the misery, recently I just got over a case of ich in one of my tanks (my fault for not quarantining a new fish). But I pulled out all the fish and treated them individually in small jars w/ salt and high temps (as I described in the earlier post). I did not want to put treatment into my tank (b/c it is full of plants) so that is why I pulled out all my fish. Left my tank w/o fish for two weeks and after my fish were treated I put them back into the original tank and there has been no signs of disease recurrence for a month now. Like I said, the ich will die out w/o a host after two weeks time....and this is being generous on the time.

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post #26 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 05:33 PM
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But I pulled out all the fish and treated them individually in small jars w/ salt and high temps
LOL Funny if it wasn't so serious.


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post #27 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 06:18 PM
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Raising the temp and adding salt always did the trick for me. Then again I don't keep shrimp also so I don't know what their threshold for temp is.
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post #28 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 06:45 PM
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Sometimes I struggle expressing my thoughts in writing and the formed words are not a true indicator of what I meant to express. The treatment I apply when a rare outbreak of ich hits my aquariums is simply this…

The increase in water temperature accelerates the parasite’s life cycle, getting the parasite into its life stage when it is vulnerable to destruction quicker and decreasing the overall duration of the infestation.

Rid Ich Plus has been effective for me, killing the free-swimming stage of ich. It takes a bit longer at half dose but historically safe for my plants and sensitive fish.

The salt benefit is two-fold. It irritates, if not kills, the free-swimming stage of ich and also helps the fish promote their slime coat, which inhibits further parasite attachment.

The UV is a temporary but lethal weapon to the free-swimming stage parasite. The more ‘bullets’ I can fire, the more of them I can kill.

I feed metro laced foods to strengthen the overall health of the host and protect against secondary infections that can occur when a fish is in a weakened condition. (and you are correct, if a fish will not eat, attempting to administer medicine orally is useless)

I’m unable to present any scientific evidence this approach is valid but it has worked for me.

Regards,
-Gary

Last edited by ge2655; 03-26-2013 at 10:53 AM. Reason: correction
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post #29 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 07:48 PM
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i always use the heat and salt method. Most fish can handle a stint at higher temps, you just need to raise the temperature slowly. Several people mentioned using salt, heat, and ich medication. Please be careful with this combination. Having a warm tank reduces oxygen in the water. Also most ich produces have formalin and malachite green. Formalin can really decrease the the amount of oxygen in the water as well. If mixing the two you need to watch the fish really closely and many need to add air stones ect. Though salt and heat should do the trick alone.
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post #30 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ge2655 View Post
Sometimes I struggle expressing my thoughts in writing and the formed words are not a true indicator of what I meant to express. The treatment I apply when a rare outbreak of ich hits my aquariums is simply this…

The increase in water temperature accelerates the parasite’s life cycle, getting the parasite into its life stage when it is venerable to destruction quicker and decreasing the overall duration of the infestation.

Rid Ich Plus has been effective for me, killing the free-swimming stage of ich. It takes a bit longer at half dose but historically safe for my plants and sensitive fish.

The salt benefit is two-fold. It irritates, if not kills, the free-swimming stage of ich and also helps the fish promote their slime coat, which inhibits further parasite attachment.

The UV is a temporary but lethal weapon to the free-swimming stage parasite. The more ‘bullets’ I can fire, the more of them I can kill.

I feed metro laced foods to strengthen the overall health of the host and protect against secondary infections that can occur when a fish is in a weakened condition. (and you are correct, if a fish will not eat, attempting to administer medicine orally is useless)

I’m unable to present any scientific evidence this approach is valid but it has worked for me.

Regards,
-Gary
Sounds as good as any other approach I've heard. Especially if it works.

My only addition would be to move the fish into a treatment tank if I could.
I have lots of flora (bacteria, archaea, crustacea, fungi and plankton) that I value nearly as much as the fish. I wouldn't want the collateral damage.


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