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post #16 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ceri-rust View Post
Okay well im think of getting either the aqua one 620t or the jewel lido 120 well planted with an external superfish aquapro 200 and peat extract in it rather than carbon what do you think of that?
Like I said in the beginning, you don't have to fuss over filtering for angels. As long as it removes ammonia etc It'll be fine. That was the point of the video. They live in turbid muck.

If you want to pull the carbon out - by all means. Many cichlid owners think it's bad news anyway.
Like I said earlier if your water is not hard you don't need peat. If it is and you want to use it then put it in.

A friend of mine runs the aqua one 620t as is, out of the box, with angels and has no real issues. He might as the fish get bigger.


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post #17 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 07:42 PM
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Is there a reason you want to get an all in 1 system? In my experience, what is going to happen over time is that you are going to spend a significant amount more money with a system such as that because they are often not up to par on the equipment that comes with them. (if its just the tank and stand, disregard this)

The best recommendation i can give is to buy aquarium, lights, heater, filtration, etc as standalone products either through amazon or another company. You will be much happier in the long run with the quality of the products.

I am not sure what you guys have available in England for aquarium supplies..

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post #18 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 08:00 PM
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I definitely wouldnt keep wild angels at 8+... In fact.. I personally wouldnt keep wilds al all. I have a problem with removing fish from their natural environment when we can captive breed. You can find wild cross breeds (wild/captive) at Angelsplus+. Some of the most stunning fish i have ever seen.

I am not sure how much experienced you actually have, but i live by one rule with my fish keeping... Keep It Simple Stupid. This just seems like its alot of upkeep over time. It fully depends on your set up
I don't advocate keeping wild caught either. Even get people upset by commenting about pulling fish out, flying them round the world then gassing them with CO2. We were just discussing wild angels which wikka27 happened to mention.

Not everyone lives in the US so we can't all just pop over to Angels+ or whatever. The angels I get here are bred in Queensland (that's in Australia) in blackwater conditions.

I have 35 years experience. Kept my first angels in 1978

And because I'm neither stupid nor simple I know how to put a few leaves in a tank and some peat in a filter and not worry about plants and lights and 'dosing fertz' etc etc.

cheers


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post #19 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 08:38 PM
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Ha.... i hope you know i wasnt calling you either simple or stupid... i was calling myself that ..... but that post was more back to the OP.

Sounds like you have it figured out what works for you, which is great. The only thing i was trying to get to the OP was by keeping it simple you dont overthink it, I have had better luck over the year this way

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Last edited by msawdey; 03-19-2013 at 09:04 PM. Reason: misspell
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post #20 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 09:47 PM
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Like I said in the beginning, you don't have to fuss over filtering for angels. As long as it removes ammonia etc It'll be fine. That was the point of the video. They live in turbid muck.

If you want to pull the carbon out - by all means. Many cichlid owners think it's bad news anyway.
Like I said earlier if your water is not hard you don't need peat. If it is and you want to use it then put it in.

A friend of mine runs the aqua one 620t as is, out of the box, with angels and has no real issues. He might as the fish get bigger.
Soft and acidic for wilds yes but turbid muck (?) that's a stretch for a description of their native habitat I think. Amazon River fish see a constant change in the water volume and on average the mineral content is very low. Regional domestic or farm raised fish are able to thrive in a broad range of conditions. BUT, experience here is clean water rewards the efforts. If you alter the source water via leaves, peat or other means in the system then water parameters are continuously shifting, subtle yes but shifting. Prepping the change water or shifting TDS with each cycle of new water. I choose to simply tank with clear water having mineral balance and monitor TDS.

Consistency is the key be it temperature or water mineral content.
All mine are phenotype bred for specific traits and 3-5dGH and 1-2dKH is where I keep water parameters. Many many folks have healthy angelfish in tanks with pH in the upper 7.5 - 7.8pH range and general hardness of 8dGH or more. Personally I feel the hatch rates are better in softer water.

GH, KH, TDS test your source water and see what you have then worry whether to alter things is my suggestion. Followed this thread with interest until things seemed to get complicated. Offering my opinion.

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post #21 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 09:54 PM Thread Starter
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Soft and acidic for wilds yes but turbid muck (?) that's a stretch for a description of their native habitat I think. Amazon River fish see a constant change in the water volume and on average the mineral content is very low. Regional domestic or farm raised fish are able to thrive in a broad range of conditions. BUT, experience here is clean water rewards the efforts. If you alter the source water via leaves, peat or other means in the system then water parameters are continuously shifting, subtle yes but shifting. Prepping the change water or shifting TDS with each cycle of new water. I choose to simply tank with clear water having mineral balance and monitor TDS.

Consistency is the key be it temperature or water mineral content.
All mine are phenotype bred for specific traits and 3-5dGH and 1-2dKH is where I keep water parameters. Many many folks have healthy angelfish in tanks with pH in the upper 7.5 - 7.8pH range and general hardness of 8dGH or more. Personally I feel the hatch rates are better in softer water.

GH, KH, TDS test your source water and see what you have then worry whether to alter things is my suggestion. Followed this thread with interest until things seemed to get complicated. Offering my opinion.
Thank you
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post #22 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 09:55 PM
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okay so are people saying to stay away from angels or not ? I won't be getting wild ones, bog standard nice captive bred? With an external probably running peat in and wood/stone inside help?!
Here is one of my Orinoco tanks.
As you can see, not much in the way of plants. Lots of wood.
These leaves are the key to the black water (more yellow). Unless your water is quite hard they are all you need. The more you put in the softer and darker and more acidic it becomes.
You can hide them by sticking them up the back end on.
I leave the laying about because the corydoras and angels pick at them, or what's on them.
Ignore the danio, they were cycle fish and I can't bring myself to get rid of them.
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post #23 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 10:02 PM
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Soft and acidic for wilds yes but turbid muck (?) that's a stretch for a description of their native habitat I think.
So did you watch the video further up the thread?
Never once saw angels in anything other than black or turbid water. But that was Orinoco, not Amazon. Maybe it's clearer there but I doubt it.


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post #24 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 10:10 PM Thread Starter
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Here is one of my Orinoco tanks.
As you can see, not much in the way of plants. Lots of wood.
These leaves are the key to the black water (more yellow). Unless your water is quite hard they are all you need. The more you put in the softer and darker and more acidic it becomes.
You can hide them by sticking them up the back end on.
I leave the laying about because the corydoras and angels pick at them, or what's on them.
Ignore the danio, they were cycle fish and I can't bring myself to get rid of them.
thanks looks good can I buy them online?
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post #25 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-19-2013, 10:36 PM
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thanks looks good can I buy them online?
es most likely. These are Indian Almond Leaves. Some people in England use Oak or Beech or Alder cones.

If you want to have a go then do a little research. Go slowly.
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/leaf-litter
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/peat-filtration

But like I said in the beginning you can run the tank as is Like my friend does.
Or with peat and leaves Like I do.
or with external pumps, lights, CO2 systems, tds or conductivity meters, RO units and re-mineralisation as other prefer.
You can be as simple or tricky as you like.
That's the hobby


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post #26 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-20-2013, 01:12 AM
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too much talk and pseudo experience.

Fish can adjust, even in their natural habitat, there is wide range of condition due to dry/wet season, river/landlock water body...,
heavy tannin water or not, make sure you keep the water clean and avoid fluctuation.





From other angelfish keepers personal tanks, I know:
altum angelfish are a lot more delicate, but slowly adjust, they survive well in a planted tank with PH as high as 8.5. and TDS as high as 500.
wild angelfish have no problem in these water condition, they are hardier than altum anyway. the key is to slowly adjust, avoid sudden change.

I will try altum when the season come, my tank is ready, the pH can not go higher than 5 no matter how much water I change, typical old tank syndrome.
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post #27 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-20-2013, 06:34 AM
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I will try altum when the season come, my tank is ready, the pH can not go higher than 5 no matter how much water I change, typical old tank syndrome.
5!
That's scary even for me.
What's the pH of your replacement water? and how long does it take to settle back after a big W/C?


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post #28 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-20-2013, 03:39 PM
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5?!?!?! holy cowwwww... Thats the pH of coffee.... or did you mean 8.5?

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post #29 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-20-2013, 04:42 PM
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So did you watch the video further up the thread?
Never once saw angels in anything other than black or turbid water. But that was Orinoco, not Amazon. Maybe it's clearer there but I doubt it.
Indeed I did. Better choice of words for a better response I think.
Tannins or blackwater maybe.
Turbid muck
Turbid = Opaque and muddy as when particles and sediment are stirred up. Good luck with healthy gill function in those conditions.

Muck = soft moist dirt or filth
1: soft moist farmyard manure 2: slimy dirt or filth

Really what you would post for optimum tanking conditions?
In discussion with a number of the higher end breeders over several years none ever recommend this.

I'll repeat what I posted then leave this thread to others.

"Consistency is the key be it temperature or water mineral content.
All mine are phenotype bred for specific traits and 3-5dGH and 1-2dKH is where I keep water parameters. Many many folks have healthy angelfish in tanks with pH in the upper 7.5 - 7.8pH range and general hardness of 8dGH or more. Personally I feel the hatch rates are better in softer water."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettatail View Post
too much talk and pseudo experience.

Fish can adjust, even in their natural habitat, there is wide range of condition due to dry/wet season, river/landlock water body...,
heavy tannin water or not, make sure you keep the water clean and avoid fluctuation. **********.
(read the bold of another posting opinion)

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post #30 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-20-2013, 05:02 PM
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couldnt agree more. Which was what i was trying to convey in different words to the OP.... wkndracer is just better at everything

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