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my GBRs have been dying. not sure why...

3K views 27 replies 7 participants last post by  Aquaticfan 
#1 ·
hey everyone,

so over the past 1 week i have lost 3 of my 6 GBRs. i am battling ich in my tank but the ich is pretty much all gone. im keeping the tank high in terms of temperature to make sure. i also used coppersafe to kill it as i read it was milder.
however, my rams began dying. there were no visible ich marks on them and its always a mystery. this morning i left for work and my tank parameters were not disturbed (temp and such) and i returned at 9pm and one more had died.
my water parameters are as follows. all tests were with API FW master kit
ammonia and nitrite: 0ppm tested an hour ago
nitrate: tested yesterday about 5-10ppm
pH: 7.2-7.4 (rams were raised locally so this has never been a problem for them. for the previous 5 weeks my tank has been running, they have been perfectly fine and happy. they even spawned once!)
GH: 6dGH
KH: 3dKH

i want to say that there was violence involved as i know the cichlids get territorial. i did see one flaring to another yesterday and the other flaring back then some nipping. but the one that died today was not one of those 2. today one of the larger ones was dead. besides this, they were perfectly fine. i dont know why now, they are dropping like this. its pretty upsetting.

any ideas?
 
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#2 ·
Ram's are pretty delicate fish, stress really affects them. The only thing I can think of is that there was a secondary infection other than ich that was affecting them. Perhaps an internal bacterial infection? Or, perhaps what you diagnosed as ich was in fact something else entirely. Did you notice any difference in activity or feeding? Lethargic movement, hanging in places uncharacteristically (top for rams), or not eating are all signs that something is off.
 
#3 ·
my rams were usually browsing the floor and hanging out in the back of my tank where i have it pretty heavily planted with pennywort. they would only come to the surface to feed as the food takes a while to fall down. they did this since i got them. ever since the number of dither fish went down the rams are in hiding more which i would expect. what i dont understand is how they seem to die even though they were fine a couple minutes before hand. they swim around the back and sometimes peek out, mostly when im not in the room (they swim back quickly if i come in and make too much noise). feeding hasnt been irregular, and neither has their general actions. im fairly sure i had ich, as it was white spots over the fish's body. it could be a bacterial infection maybe though. im not sure what that would look like/what its caused from. now that you got me on this bacterial infection, i hope it does not spread.
 
#4 ·
GBR's are VERY easily hit by ich. Its one of their biggest issues. They do stress easy. But the biggest issue is this with ich and them.. It can hide in their gills and cause issues in there for them to breath. This is how Ich really kills anyhow. Seen it happen more then one time. Wont see any Ich left on the fish. Its where you cant see them. The gills.
 
#6 ·
As said before, delicate fish. Also Ich...

40 breeder is to small for 6 rams. I keep max 2 pair in a 55 -75 and 3 in a 125.
If you add more they will bug each other to much and fish will overstress can lead to illness --> dead.

I also learned it the hard way.

up your temp to 87, add 1teaspoon of salt per gallon. airate your water.
 
#7 ·
yeah i am learning the hard way now. i got them locally and the guy sold me 6 as a deal. i figured i would try to handle it. i guess as they grow older, they get more territorial. now i have 3. unsure of genders at the moment but im going to get the tank settled and then add in all the other fish after the ich has been dealt with, ending with rams to see if any of my 3 will pair.
 
#8 ·
Rams simply don't tolerate nitrate. They are easily stressed, and stressed fish are a target for any infection, bacterial, fungal, or viral. 'Bad' bacteria, viruses, and funguses are present in all tanks, it's just when the tank's occupants are stressed that the little nuisances make their attack.
 
#10 ·
Rams simply don't tolerate nitrate.
I don't find this to be true or an issue. I have several different pairs of rams in several tanks. All if them heavily planted, some with co2 all of them dosed Via EI. I run the nitrates roughly up to 60 to 80 ppm before a 70% water change reset weekly. They deal with it just fine. Mine spawn in it and never any issues of stress.
 
#9 ·
hey everyone,

so over the past 1 week i have lost 3 of my 6 GBRs. i am battling ich in my tank but the ich is pretty much all gone. im keeping the tank high in terms of temperature to make sure. i also used coppersafe to kill it as i read it was milder.
however, my rams began dying. there were no visible ich marks on them and its always a mystery. this morning i left for work and my tank parameters were not disturbed (temp and such) and i returned at 9pm and one more had died.
my water parameters are as follows. all tests were with API FW master kit
ammonia and nitrite: 0ppm tested an hour ago
nitrate: tested yesterday about 5-10ppm
pH: 7.2-7.4 (rams were raised locally so this has never been a problem for them. for the previous 5 weeks my tank has been running, they have been perfectly fine and happy. they even spawned once!)
GH: 6dGH
KH: 3dKH

i want to say that there was violence involved as i know the cichlids get territorial. i did see one flaring to another yesterday and the other flaring back then some nipping. but the one that died today was not one of those 2. today one of the larger ones was dead. besides this, they were perfectly fine. i dont know why now, they are dropping like this. its pretty upsetting.

any ideas?
Panda..

? Isn't this the same tank where you had many hatchetfish that were all dying?

You may have some parasitic issue :( Fish TB? god i hope not.

It seems like allot of different fish are dying. If its not your water params, oxygen/co2 overdose it may be an illness spreading in your tank.

Sorry to sound so negetive, i hope you get it resolved soon
 
#14 ·
tank parameters as of now are still 0 ammonia and nitrite. nitrate is probably higher than before (maybe 10 to 15ppm) due to no water change from ich treatment. from what it seems like above, nitrate and rams are compatible (in a loose sense of the word) and since i checked my water right after the ram died, i dont think it could have been ammonia or nitrite poisoning.
 
#15 ·
Hmmmm.......I'm guessing it's ich doing you in then. I might recommend a large water change to remove some free floating ich. Perhaps one of your hatchets came with ich and all of it went downhill from there. You also happened to get all the fish that startle and stress easy too :X
 
#16 ·
it could be ich but this late seems unlikely, at least to me. the ram died yesterday and the first visible sign of ich was 10 days ago, which is also when i started treatment. at 86 degrees, the ich life cycle takes about 3-4 days. i dosed copper the day i saw it as well so any free swimming ich would have been knocked out by the copper. if ich was harbored in the gills, maybe that was it? but then why did none of my fish show any signs of stress, aside from hiding which is what they had done before the ich as well. i know for certain one of them died from fighting cuz i watched it happen and i saw the beat up ram later.
the ich happened before the hatchets came in. i think it was stress induced or was in on the honeycomb cat but even then, the honeycomb cat was one of the first fish in my tank 4 weeks ago and did fine. the ich hit when i removed my platy so i reasoned it was stress that led to the ich outbreak.
funny thing about the startling haha my first hatchet has never even tried to leap no matter how many times i aquascape or surprise him. it was all the little ones that did. and yeah most of my fish are ich susceptible, but somehow, my hatchet never got it. maybe ich doesnt swim to the surface as much? hahaha
 
#17 ·
Large water changes are to remove any potential remaining ich, so that when you dose again you're dealing with a smaller volume. It's how you treat most bacteria infections just incase you don't get all of it. It's probably either ich or another bacterial infection. Either way you should make the next water change after dosing a large one IME
 
#19 ·
There is a difference between ich and a bacterial infection though. Ich is not bacterial. It's a form of parasite. Antibiotics have low to no effects on ich. They are not classed as gram positive or gram negative. Bacteria is effected by antibiotics. They are a negative or positive gram based life. Raised temps will speed ich in its life cycle while in some cases raised temps have no effect on bacteria other then making them bloom better. Water changes also may not reduce any of the above.
 
#18 ·
with coppersafe there is no need for another dose. i confirmed this with another guy who had used the stuff before. he recommended it to people who had scaleless fish or delicate fish in general. its 1mL per 4 gallons of water (not including displaced volume) and the medicine will stay in the water column for 1 month. the only time to do a water change would be before beginning treatment and after the ich has been dealt with. if i did a water change and redosed, thats just adding extra work and im cheap so i wouldnt want to waste the coppersafe lol. my next water change will just be to remove coppersafe, not adding anything back in as the ich symptoms were gone a while ago. only continuing treatment to ensure its gone.
if bacterial infections present no visible symptoms then i guess it could be that. looking up some bacterial conditions, it seems they all have something visible like lethargy or wasting. the ram that died was definitely well fed and did not have any signs before i left that morning. if it was ich in the gills, that may have killed my other rams, makes sense as the first of the 3 to die was the one that had the most ich issues (even then, visible symptoms werent that abundant after death). the 2nd i am positive was aggression as i saw it happening before lights out in the tank, and the 3rd i have no idea. if there is a bacterial infection that has no symptoms then maybe that could be it? but why did not all the other fish contract it beforehand as well?
anyhow, next water change is gonna be sunday i think. after i let the temp drop back to normal on wednesday/thursday. no more dosing and ich should be set. last visible sign was most definitely last week
 
#20 ·
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/ichthyophthirius

I think it's a great article. You can control F water change and see for yourself. It's always helped in the past for me and I think it's a pretty standard procedure after dosing any sort of meds or treating for bacterial or ich.

It's also pretty standard for big water changes for invertebrates which are wayy more fragile to do large water changes after treating for bacterial infection. The idea is to remove floating detritus and bacteria from the water column, while continuously dosing, to add fresh non infected water. Just remember to preserve the water quality so that the new water resembles the tank water in pH, gH, etc.
 
#22 ·
Yeah ich isn't a bacterial infection. However, either way its floating in the water column, it's how it spreads from fish to fish. Same with bacteria, water movement causes the bacteria to be in your water column as well. A water large water change, meaning in my opinion not 80% but around 50% could cut down on the amount of free floating bacteria and ich.

water changes aren't a solution, it's merely to go with your treatment, that's why I suggest it after treating the tank. It removes.....excess bacteria (free floating), excess protozoan/parasites (free floating), and excess stressful medication (free floating).

You and me both know that when we look at "pond" water to look for protists, amoeba, protozoan, and other parasites. We can simply just sample water and throw it under a microscope. We don't have to tredge the bottom of a pond or anything, it's free floating. Water changes after a certain increment of time after the treatment is meant to cut down on the possibility of the return of whatever it is affecting the tank and also to give the fish some freshwater
 
#23 ·
yeah thats what i plan on doing. the reason im not changing the water now is because i still have the meds in the tank. once im done with the treatment, should be tomorrow, i will change the water. at this point, if i am correct, there should be no more ich free floating. the only thing that should be in the water column is coppersafe which i will have to do many water changes over time to remove. thats in my schedule once i finish ich treatments completely. i hate ich.
 
#25 ·
if ich was in the gills i would expect to see flashing/heavy breathing but i havent seen that lately. i guess i can say with almost 80% certainty that there is no ich in my tank. tomorrow i will turn down the temp and resume normal tank fucntion FINALLY! sand was all siphoned pre-treatment to remove as much as i could. anything else will definitely have gone into the free floating stage as high temps will accelerate the life cycle. i also read that temps of 86 interrupt ich's ability to reproduce. i dont think any would be in the sand at this point, as there were no cysts that occured within the last 4 days, 4 days being the average life cycle of ich at 86 degrees. my catfish dont stir up sand as much as cory cats do. they are primarily nocturnal surface feeders
 
#26 ·
THere is usually alway ich in any aquarium. It lives, dormant, in the gills and substrate, and only when the residents of the aquarium are stressed will the ich make its move.
 
#27 ·
i had always thought that this was disproven because i dont think ich has a dormant stage in its life cycle but this is something that has been up in the air for a while. for me, i dont want it to come back haha so im gonna try to keep stress low.
 
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