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How to make For Sale/Trade work better for all?

4K views 66 replies 26 participants last post by  lauraleellbp 
#1 · (Edited)
First a request to our Mods; please moderate this thread heavily. Posts that to not adhere to the following restrictions please remove, or I will 'flag' them and ask them to be removed from this thread.

Hi All,

We have had several discussions since the Swap and Shop (SNS) sub-forum was closed; regrettably mostly lamenting its closure. That is not this thread, this thread is about making our current For Sale / Trade (FST) sub-forum better and why.

Please offer your ideas as to what would make the current FST better and why. (I don't want comments like "make it like SNS" or "bring back Powerseller"; I will flag those posts and request the Mods remove them.)

Two ideas that have been presented by others that that hopefully could be incorporated into our existing FST guidelines are:

1) Allow comments in an FST thread without creating a 'bump' - it would allow comments and feedback that are visible to all but would not move the thread back to the top of the list/page/sub-forum.

2) Allow the OP to do a very limited number of 'bumps', maybe one every few days or just once a week. I just visited the FST sub-forum and the oldest thread on the first page goes back to 9/10 and on the third page goes back to 9/6 (a week ago). It is obvious that allowing once a day bumps was very excessive; threads could move off of the 1st page in a matter of hours but it seems that 'no bumps' has made the FST sub-forum seem lifeless. There is probably some number between daily and never that would be optimum and trial and error might be the best way to determine it.

What are your thoughts on improving the existing FST sub-forum without causing increased moderation effort or manpower and keeping the amount of hassles our Mods have to deal with to a minimum?
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Personally, I think the for sale forum should be split up into three categories:

Live stock
Plants
dry goods

That would keep you on the 1st page a lot longer. I guess it would be great if we could bump it a couple times too. Other people's feedback on what you're selling would be great also. Maybe the forum could be set to where replies didn't bump thread up to the top...
 
#3 ·
I think creating a separate category for trade threads and perhaps limiting them to three or so a month (and not have them count against sale thread quotas) would be nice. This would allow people to freely trade without having to worry about using up their sale threads. A lot of us would much rather trade than sell if we're not in it for cash flow.
 
#4 ·
Roy - My post from the other thread:

To the Mods - Not exactly to topic but, I feel relevant. I went on SnS a few minutes ago and noticed how many SOLD posts are taking up space on the 1st few pages.

I limited my search to "Plants" and even then, after two pages and two sips of coffee I was bored with the process. Just no way I'm going to run through that whole Sub-Forum.

I would offer instead of having people mark their sales threads SOLD, just have them delete the the post. That would at the least remove the clutter and automatically bump the remaining posts a little.
 
#5 ·
Here are my thoughts:

I don't disagree with the limit on threads however I don't like that you are limited to a certain number per 30 days. I think that it should stay at a certain number of active threads at any given time, when a thread closes, you can post a new one. Like I said in the other thread, kinda like Netflix...only a certain number of DVD's at once, but when you send one back you get another, no limits per month.

Bring back the power seller section. I thought it was great. You are able to keep those that are in it to make money separate from hobbyists that are just trying to rotate stock. Just make sure to keep strict to keep power sellers from spilling over in to the "hobbyist" section and also to keep hobbyist from crossing the power seller line.
 
#7 ·
Bring back the power seller section. I thought it was great. You are able to keep those that are in it to make money separate from hobbyists that are just trying to rotate stock. Just make sure to keep strict to keep power sellers from spilling over in to the "hobbyist" section and also to keep hobbyist from crossing the power seller line.
+1

I am fine with the changes for the sell section. Users who are not here to make money of their sales can still use the For Sale/ Trade section and can be limited to a certain number of sale/trade threads and a bump limit.

To me power sellers fulfill the gap between hobbyists and the big sponsors. They are the guys who bring new stuff in. For eg. If Liam hadnt ordered several glass intakes/ outtakes from his supplier overseas and sold it to us for what it cost on fleabay and $3 in shipping. We would be stuck with paying an additional $20 in shipping and waiting over 3 weeks for things to arrive from Hong Kong.

While I can see the argument that power sellers should become sponsors, I dont believe that is right. Sponsors have very limited product lines and bigger operations than most powersellers will be comfortable with.

I also like the fact that things keep getting refreshed with powersellers because they dont have a huge backlog of inventory to get rid of.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Hi All,

Good suggestions!

@oldpunk78 - we can search various categories in the FST now; if it were split up into three different sub-forums each sub-forum would receive fewer views and if I was looking for a cool plant I would not necessary see your thread on CO2 check valves. The fewer the sub-forums the more traffic in each one; that is why most successful forums have fewer sub-forums and seldom add new ones.

@HighDesert - I like to trade as much as the next person and I have traded with many on this forum. Trades are fine but if I listed a special crypt (see below) for trade wouldn't someone wanting that plant possibly contact me to purchase? Then my Trade thread acts like a For Sale thread.

@DogFish - Interesting suggestion, but let's say I just closed a thread on Cyptocoryne 'Flamingo' and you were looking for some. If you saw my closed FST would you PM me anyway just to be first in line for my new rare 'Flamingo' crypt?

@Nubster - The old Powerseller sub-forum and SNS are dead...period. Thank you for wanting to share but I am going to flag your post and ask a Mod to remove it from this thread because it does not adhere to the guidelines.
 
#10 ·
Hi All,

Good suggestions!

@oldpunk78 - we can search various categories in the FST now; if it were split up into three different subforums each sub-forum would receive fewer views and it I was looking for a cool plant I would not necessary see your thread on CO2 check valves. The fewer the sub-forums the more traffic in each one; that is why most successful forums have fewer sub-forums and seldom add new ones.

@HighDesert - I like to trade as much as the next person and I have traded with many on this forum. Trades are fine but if I listed a special crypt (see below) for trade wouldn't someone wanting that plant possibly contact me to purchase? Then my Trade thread acts like a For Sale thread.

@DogFish - Interesting suggestion, but let's say I just closed a thread on Cyptocoryne 'Flamingo' and you were looking for some. Would you saw my closed FST would you PM me anyway just to be first in line for my new rare 'Flamingo' crypt?

@Nubster - The old Powerseller sub-forum and SNS are dead...period. Thank you for wanting to share but I am going to flag your post and ask a Mod to remove it from this thread because it does not adhere to the guidelines.
I know, Its just that no one uses it. The 1st page is still where Its at.
 
#9 ·
continued

@wkndracer - pretty much what I said in the first post. It would make the threads more interesting and add more information without giving the thread an advantage over others.

@wastedtime - again, the Powerseller and old Swap and Shop sub-forums are dead. I appreciate you wanting to contribute but we are only talking about improvements to the For Sale and Trade sub-forum. I'm afraid I am going to ask that you join Nubster.
 
#11 ·
First a request to our Mods; please moderate this thread heavily. Posts that to not adhere to the following restrictions please remove, or I will 'flag' them and ask them to be removed from this thread.
Sorry, but you are posting on a public forum. Only posts that conflict with our forum rules will be considered for removal.

We will read these sort of threads and consider/discuss suggestions and opinions. The problem with opinions... everybody has one, and it is difficult (or should I say, impossible) to create something that will satisfy every single member.
 
#14 ·
Hi All,

In the future I will ignore all posts that don't adhere to the title of the thread which is

"How to make For Sale/Trade work better for all?"

For those of you who have comments with regards to how to improve the existing FST sub-forum without reverting back to the unworkable systems that have been terminated please continue to post your ideas.
 
#31 ·
Chad - Of course that makes sense. I would give a Itrader feed back until after I received my plants. Still it would streamline the prices if the SOLD would vaporize on a more timely basis.



...@DogFish - Interesting suggestion, but let's say I just closed a thread on Cyptocoryne 'Flamingo' and you were looking for some. If you saw my closed FST would you PM me anyway just to be first in line for my new rare 'Flamingo' crypt?....
Roy - I can imagine some people might do that.

I'm not really representative of the average buyer anymore. I seldom buy from anyone that isn't on my "friends" list or people like yourself I've Traded/Bought from in the past (Note to self, invite Roy). I know who keeps what and who to Pm when I'm looking. I've stopped selling on SNS. I still do a few local only things on the Ill. forum for people I know here in Chicago but I think I'll be wrapping that up too after our next Swap. I used to enjoy the old SNS, but those days are over. I find it's less stressful to just compost extra plants. Selling here was about relationships and a little extra hobby money. I've shut down several tanks so the extra hobby money part is no longer a motivation.

I really don't have a dog in this fight, but I care about the community here and I 'd hate to see an migration.
 
#17 ·
@Aben314 - Yes, up to 40 posts per page. Go to your User CP, 'Options and Settings'; 'Edit Options'; and scroll down to 'Number of Posts to Show Per Page' and set it to the number you like.
 
#25 ·
I know about this and have already done it. I was asking about making that the default, rather than something users would have to opt-in to. The same people who don't go to page 2 are the same ones who won't set it to 40.

I was asking about threads anyway, not posts. So that more threads would show on the first page.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
 
#19 ·
I think that the bumping whenever there is a comment by anyone in the sales thread within a set period of time. I think every 48 hours or maybe a little longer would suffice, and only if the seller posts after that time period. So like the old bumping system where you had to wait to post a new comment, except it doesn't bump if the seller posts before the time limit. Does that make sense?

Also, I like the wtb forum being separate from the sales, because wtb's would always get buried under so much other stuff.

I know that the super quick bumping was a problem for me, I couldn't seem to keep my thread visible for very long, and it would help other 'just hobbyists' as well.
 
#20 · (Edited)
@rainbuilder - interesting idea but from what I remember about the vBulletin / Jelsoft software it isn't that versatile and writing a sub-routine is probably out of the question. I think it can handle X = # of bumps and it can count days. K.I.S.S. makes it easier for the Mods as well.
 
#21 ·
@rainbuilder - interesting idea but from what I remember about the vBulletin / Jelsoft software it isn't that versatile and writing a sub-routine is probably out of the question. I think it can handle X = # of bumps and it can count days. K.I.S.S. makes it easier for the Mods as well.
Hmm well I guess it could just be bump every 2 or 3 days then. Pretty much the same concept. I just think that the constant chatter bumping was a big problem.
 
#24 ·
TRADE should be move to RAOK/BUY.
Trade should only be ... Filter for plant or Filter for filter.
Trading a filter for XX plant + $$ isn't allow unless the $$ is for shipping.

BUY should be split up into three categories:

Live stock
Plants
Other
Anything thats not live or plant should be post under OTHER.
Normal user should be allow to post 1 thread every 2-3 week with 1 week Edit.
Normal user should be allow to post 1 thread per categories.
 
#27 ·
@nonconductive - that is pretty much what I do. I don't have hard statistics but I just did a quick count and more selling threads close in one day in June that we have listed in the last 3 days. That is a pretty drastic drop in the number of threads. I can make some allowances for 'summer slump' but it is obvious that the number of items offered for sale has dropped.

@In.a.Box - Please see the comment to HighDesert. Very easy to abuse; I could post a "Trade" and then say I didn't want what the other party was offering and then offer to sell it to them instead.
 
#29 ·
Anyone ever use FredMiranda's buy and sell section? TPT should basically just copy that.

-You pay $29 a year to sell

-Its is free to just be a buyer

-A member cant post a new for sale thread once every 24 hours.

-The creator of a for sale thread (OP) can bump the sale thread every 12 hours, or by posting a reply in the thread. However, once the thread has been bumped by clicking the "bump" button, if the OP or another person posts a comment, it will NOT be bumped again, until the 12 hours is up and the OP or someone else posts in the thread or bumps it. This allows commentary and positive/negative feedback to be discussed without endless bumping by stupid comments. In addition, it keeps the threads in the buy and sell section fresh and current.

-Buyers and Sellers leave feedback for each other in one of three categories: Great, Fair, or Poor. In order to leave feedback, you must post in the thread, even if just to say "Tag for Feedback". This makes it easier to track buyers and sellers and prevents as many false feedbacks as if it was just completely open at any time. The feedback system TPT has in place is already adequate and similar, so you wouldn't have to add this.

-Forum users can filter the Buy and Sell section based on Brand of equipment or include everything, or in this case it could be labeled Trade, RAOK, FS, etc. The beginning of every listing automatically has the brand/category in the front of the title, selected by clicking a box when starting the for sale thread. This allows the forum to be filtered easily. For example it would look like..... FS: Thread Title Here, or RAOK: Thread Title here.

-Once an item is sold, the thread is marked "SOLD: Thread title here" and is grayed out and crossed out, and left up for a limited amount of time before being taken off of the buy and sell board, however it still shows up when searched for. This allows members to check current going prices for items and average price paid.



Basically, just go into any successful Buy and Sell Forum and you'll have a great model to go off of, and FredMiranda is a great example. In addition, the nominal fee of $29 allows the site to easily generate revenue to cover the costs of hosting.


Done. Easy peasey, lemon squeezy. The problem seems to be that were trying to run this as a hobbyist platform, and thats perfectly fine, but it needs to be setup in the eye of a business oriented model, even though its not meant to generate significant revenue, just to cover costs of hosting.
 
#30 ·
@TickleMyElmo - Very similar to aspects of our old, unworkable Swap and Shop but even with 'bumps' every 24 hours it became a problem since additional posts on the Thread resulted in bumps. PowerSellers could run multiple sales threads and typically 'bumped' those en mass adding to the congestion.
 
#34 ·
@DogFish - Thank you for the kind words. The numbers bear out what you just said about not selling on the new FST; it appears that you are not alone. That was basically why I started this thread.

The way I look at it the old SNS problem (not talking about Powersellers...it is gone) was not necessarily the number of FS threads but the constant 'bumps' not only from the seller but also from the comments added to the thread. Someone would add a comment, the seller would respond, another comment, another response.....that is a lot more 'bumps' than one every 24 hours.

Possibly a better alternative control that would not have been as drastic would have been to stop the additional 'bumps' from responses and just allow one 'bump' by the OP every 24 hours (or less). It would confirm that the item(s) are still for sale and yet keep the thread from flying off of the first page of the old SNS after an hour or two.

What are your thoughts?
Sounds like just limiting the bumps to 1 every 12 or 24 hours like I mentioned would have solved a lot of problems :/
 
#32 ·
@DogFish - Thank you for the kind words. The numbers bear out what you just said about not selling on the new FST; it appears that you are not alone. That was basically why I started this thread.

The way I look at it the old SNS problem (not talking about Powersellers...it is gone) was not necessarily the number of FS threads but the constant 'bumps' not only from the seller but also from the comments added to the thread. Someone would add a comment, the seller would respond, another comment, another response.....that is a lot more 'bumps' than one every 24 hours.

Possibly a better alternative control that would not have been as drastic would have been to stop the additional 'bumps' from responses and just allow one 'bump' by the OP every 24 hours (or less). It would confirm that the item(s) are still for sale and yet keep the thread from flying off of the first page of the old SNS after an hour or two.

What are your thoughts?
 
#41 · (Edited)
@DogFish ....The way I look at it the old SNS problem... the constant 'bumps' not only from the seller but also from the comments added to the thread. Someone would add a comment, the seller would respond, another comment, another response.....that is a lot more 'bumps' than one every 24 hours. ....What are your thoughts?
I think there will always be a a small percentage of more aggressive sellers that will "work" their thread to move their stock. There will always be casual sellers that won't care what happens. There will be 80% in the middle.

$$$ always brings out the worst in people. I think some of the complaining was from people that didn't have a possie of friends here bumping them. I do understand how that could be frustrating, especially to a newbie.

There's the other side to the Bump issue. Those groups of friends that Bumped each other formed bonds & relationships here. It's only natural to support one's friends, especially when they treated your well as a Seller/Buyer/Trader. I've not only done that for You on some of your threads here & APC. I've PMed people and told them Roy traded me some greater Java Trident....Pm him and see if he has some, and tell him DogFish says hi.

When I started here Nick (speedie408) was one of my first friends and 1st person I bought from. when I saw him Chat & complement Xue (Looking4Roslines) I felt I could trust Xue and bought some Rare Crypts from him. Then I noticed Xue on one of Chad's thread, and on & on to my current Contact/Friends list. For me that's worked better than Itrader.

People have contacted me for the same reason, "x", "y" & "z" told me your took good care of them with some Mulberry Leaves or your Organic Root Caps, etc.

None of that might have happen so fast without the "mindless Bumps" on the old SnS. most of my friends here came equally from the Sub-Forums and SnS.
Fortunately for me, I'm networked now. A sharp Newbie should be able to do that too but it will be a bit harder dining that on just the Sub-Forums.

I'm all for keeping the playing field level but all actions have repercussions.

Maybe an even simpler system would be better. Copy Craigslist, adds run 7 days and then they are gone. But unlike Craigslist no relist. Keep the amt. of open sale/trade threads as it is and keep the 30day window. Hobbyist selling extra plants really should not need more than 3 open threads in 30days.

Want more hits/sales write better ad copy. Want repeat business be righteous and treat people well.
 
#33 ·
I think its better to just allow members, doesn't matter what color username you are to sell your left over. No reseller. I like the Rule APC set up for their for sale thread.
It isn't hard to set up a website, there are ton of free site that allow people to set up their own website. Allow user with 100+ post to post in the for sale only. Anyone can post in the buy/raok/trade.

Allow people to post their website under Signature.
Any scam out of TPT or problem out of TPT will not be deal by people on TPT.

Might not sound fair to Sponsor user.

Take out the business that mean get rid of the Bronze,Silver, Gold.
Keep the Sponsorship, whoever want to be Sponsorship on this site will pay. They offer money to be on the site that to me isn't business.

people who donate to the site will have a Supporting title under their username. The more you donate your username change color.

this will be a good change for 2013.
 
#35 ·
@In.a.Box - I am well familiar with the APC model and it has it's shortcomings as well. Their selling guidelines are substantially more restrictive which results in the same low FST thread volume.

A site the size of TPT needs funds, substantial funds, for servers and bandwidth. Unfortunately I don't think that just the revenue from Sponsor fees would cover the costs of overhead.
 
#39 ·
I am failing to see the benefit anywhere of the bump rules? It doesnt add anymore items to the page. You still have to click page two. So in effect youre still trying to out do someone else that maybe works more, or spends more time with family. How is this in any way at all an improvemnet to the current system? If it doesnt say SOLD then it still for sale right. I do however notice most of the comments for improvments come from those that were part of the origional problem and or have created problems for other users earning themselves infractions or time outs. Consider this when posting. If you are constantly stirring the kettle why would any staff member value your opinion when youve created negative problems for the board in the past? And honestly, with the number of visitors and posters each day we arent seeing too much difference in numbers if not none at all, or enough to justify a very small group of peoples opinion when the odds stand about 1000 to 20. I guess I just dont understand what the problem is in the first place? What do you want fixed? I am answering complaints with justified answers and all I see for come backs is basically "I want to be able to out do the hobbyist and make a business off your forum board like we were before." Dont you see that was the problem in the first place and the reason for the change? Give me one good reason the new SnS is problematic and ill tell you why it was discussed first, then set up that way. These polls and threads are just asking for negativity and arent really contributing any quality information. Three have been closed and yet here we go again with the same small amount of disgruntled users. The SnS is different for very justified reasons and will likely stay that way. Its just easier to accept the change than to keep complaining and undermining your own integrity.
 
#43 ·
@chat320 - Thank you for your comments.

1) You are absolutely correct, adding the ability to 'bump' does not add any more items to the page. However it does bring active FST threads to the beginning indicating to potential buyers that there are still items available. It also makes the sub-forum more vibrant and less stagnant.

2) I will disagree with your comment that most of the individuals contributing to this thread were 'part of the problem.' In fact, most of constructive comments are from individuals that were exactly the opposite. I cannot speak for others but I have not received any infractions (that I am aware of) nor 'time outs'. I have certainly not created any negative problems on this forum. Please get your facts straight and do not insinuate that I have. Just because some individuals to not agree with a policy does not mean that they are troublemakers or malcontents. Trying to improve a situation is a positive action, not a negative one.

3) If you don't understand what the problem is possibly reading this thread objectively and with and open mind will help to you gain a new perspective. What we are discussing here is the lack of participation in the new FST sub-forum and trying to determine ways to address that issue.

4) If you have read this thread in it's entirety you understand that many of the comments are about positive changes and that most of the participants do not want to see a return of the old Powerseller sub-forum or the old SNS sub-forum rules.

5) I doubt if my one (1) sales thread since the 1/1/12 made me a contributor to the problems of the old SNS sub-forum. Especially since I posted it about 12 days ago in the new FST sub-forum.

Give me one good reason the new SnS is problematic and ill tell you why it was discussed first, then set up that way.
I assume you mean the new FST sub-forum? The reason it is problematic is that our new FST is dying a slow and painful death and an healthy, vibrant, marketplace is part of a healthy, vibrant community. I am at a loss how the members of this community can see that fact but the Moderators have not.

Possibly other contributors to this thread can articulate the problem better than I. Or possibly someone on the IT side of the house can quantify the problem by measuring the drop in threads (not posts) per day in the new FST sub-forum.

Thank you for your comments Chad.
 
#40 ·
Roy

Well if you just wait a bit longer, now that summer is ending and its many outdoor distractions, I see a pick up in volume fairly soon. I don't order much in the summer simply because I don't like the unsafe shipping conditions with all the record heat waves we've been experiencing.
 
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