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First Father & Kids Tank - 20 High - 5/23/14 update! Ich Death recovery!

34K views 225 replies 32 participants last post by  Jahn 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi all, I'm moving this tank to this subforum to track progress in the right place. This is actually a joint tank with my 9 year old son, we picked up the tank from Petco last week during the dollar a gallon sale, but seeing as how our mutual knowledge of this hobby is a tie, I'm going to read up and help him out. My previous two experiences were horrendous pre-internet affairs, knowing nothing and pretty much sprinting the fish to fish heaven when I was a teen.



So the subtrate is one bag of Fluval Shrimp Stratum and a bag of eco-complete. I had another bag of eco-complete that I guess is trade bait now, since I didn't need it - the stratum is the bottom substrate, and the eco complete tops it light in the front and slopes up higher to the back a few inches. Just some sand-colored gravel in the front right corner as a decorative psuedo-pond look too.



A Tetra HT30 was supposed to keep the water at 78 but never got there, so i swapped in a fluval with adjustable temp and the digital therm has the water at 77.8, nice. I may lower this to 77 to keep tetra happy, and Platys should be ok with that. Fishless cycling, so the fluval 30 is cranked at full speed - after cycling i guess i'll just keep it there unless the fish are swimming backwards, haha. Didn't use the carbon bag, just the filter and biomass. Actually just added a second filter in middle after cycling was done, the original filter left on the bottomost tier, biomass on top.



Speaking of biomass, I used Dr. Tim's One and Only, dropped Dr. Tim's ammonia in there (about 23 drops) and left everything to settle for 3 days. Before the ammonia the tap water after being treated with Prime was zeros across the board for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Believe it or not, when I got back home after those 3 days the API tests read 0 ammonia, 0 nitrates and 20ppm nitrates! sheesh, quick cycle! I dropped some more ammonia in there last night to keep the bacteria fed while i went plant shopping after work today. (got back home, ammonia dropped from 2.0 to .5 in 8 hours, not bad) I did a 50% water change to get rid of the nitrates and lower the water level to plant plants, and filled it back up with tap w/prime once planting was done.



The foreground is dwarf baby tears with some crypt and bits of moss, and the middle ground is up in the air right now - maybe some anubis around the petrified wood that should be coming from eBay later in the week.



The background is Cabomba, half are red which I fenced that lighter gravel area with. Incoming C02 tester from eBay too, and I have Flourish here and some liquid C02 booster - just put a thread and a half of booster in this morning, and the weekly flourish after the water change.



So far so good, but told my son we needed to take it slow, ten emperor tetra in there now and schooling fine, some of the plants came with green and black algae, so I was thinking of picking up some shrimp - my son wants red ones!



Any suggestions for something I missed? I'm going low-light on the plants since the Aqueon hood has a 18W full range spectrum bulb for 20 gal. I have a gravel vacuum but probably won't use it for a while since I don't want to disturb the bacteria on the gravel, and there's not much in the way of fish detrius yet (plus when there's a nice amount of plants in there I don't want to disturb them!). Using the vacuum just to suck water out for water changes at the moment.



Here's the tank - didn't have time to take a pre-planted shot since I actually swung by Win in Chinatown on the way home and got a deal on a bag of freshwater plants, and 10 emperor tetra. So here they are! Did a 50 percent water change first with prime, took all the obvious black algae laden leaves off, and left room for the petrified wood coming later this week (the pagoda was a compromise with my son, we're keeping it on the hill in the back to hide the heater). All ten tetra survived the ordeal, and should be enough to school i think.







Edit: That is the below, following is the after, as of 12/7/13! Amazing, but since I upped the CO2, lowered the amount of light, upped filtration to a Fluval C4, and loaded it with Seachem Matrix - NO BLACK ALGAE. No joke, my bane is finally gone! And no fish deaths - nitrate has stayed nice and low! I have to keep getting in there and pruning stuff - this is after a recent pruning, already it's getting stuffed in there again :proud: Following the pic is a video of our five new Lambchop Rasbora shoaling with the Galaxy Rasbora (Celestial Pearl Danio).











5/23/14: ich wipeout. Added a balloon ram that had ich, wiped everything out except 4 Lambchop rasbora, that one neon tetra that must be Wolverine, the Pleco, and two amano shrimp. Since the tank has gotten to the point where all the ich is gone and off the current fish, might as well intro new fish during treatment since I would treat them for ich anyhow. Thought we got ten rummynose tetra but one snuck in there that wasn't- the January Tetra.

http://www.inaquarium.com/hemigrammus-hyanuary.php

It loves to school with the rummies so this is fine. Before adding them, here is a shot with the new driftwood the store gave me as a mea culpa for the fishocalypse:
 
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#2 · (Edited)
OK that first post is technically 4/29/13, today's post is 4/30/13. Checking the water as A-OK after the ten tetra have settled in (with no problem at just under 78 degrees either, which is good for future platys in a week or two), I decided that 10 Sakura shrimp isn't too much of a bioload to introduce today either, what with all the plants doing their thing too with algae ready to be chomped on. I was thinking of feeding the fish twice a day, but until I'm sure the bacteria is caught up on 10 tetra and 10 shrimp within 48 hours, I'll keep it at one feeding and monitor ammonia levels. I'll do another water change, probably 20% when the petrified wood arrives, probably on Thursday. For the shrimp, it'll be 10 juvies from this tank:




These are the petrified wood that are coming, about 20 pounds total in weight so I think it's fine without a foam cushion on the bottom of the tank. It's Nazlini from Arizona, so none of the color should leech out, it's been inert for like 200 million years, haha. Here it is wet, to give an idea of how it'll look in the tank. Four look mountain-rangey, two look good leaned against each other for a bridge type thing, and the one big one should do well in the back right corner hiding the thermometer, maybe with a tall plant or two peeking out from behind:



Hmm, one of the swords has pretty bad BBA, I had to prune about half its leaves already. I should just dump that plant before the BBA spreads to other plants. The other sword has fuzzy bright green algae that actually looks kinda nice behind the pagoda, I'll keep that. But yeah that BBAed sword is freaking me out - what a thing to introduce to a new tank! I think I'll get a marimo ball for the shrimp too, maybe park it solo in the light gravel corner to stand out.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Ok, enough fauna intro for a few weeks, probably just get 3 Platys more then that's it. The count currently is 10 Emperor Tetra, 10 Sakura Shrimp, 6 hitchhiking snails. Fauna foreground is dwarf baby tears with a few pygmy chain swords hiding in there, the main mid plants are green and red cabomba, and the back I removed that nasty grass one with the black beard algae and bought an amazon sword and a back fence of Anacharis that will quickly fill out I'm sure. The Sakura Shrimp seller included a few floating plants - giant duckweed, some a very nice red around the edges - to help suck nitrate and do pH balance. And the coup de grace, a a Marimo moss ball for the shrimp to play with in the open waters. I stuck a post-filter sponge on the intake tube as a pre-filter until the more attractive small black Fluval pre-filter sponges come.

So here's the tank before the petrified wood is put in - it got delivered today so my son and I will plan placement and all that. Since my son's 9, don't expect graceful, but do expect playful! (his idea to stuff the two tufts of "firey looking" java moss into the windows of the pagoda to make it look like it's green fire haha). Here are the pics from this morning, May 1:



Here's a side shot to show the low-medium-high front to back gradation of the 'scaping:



And here's a pic of the pagoda. The Amazon sword in the back will hide the heater and cables when it's bigger, and the pygmy chain sword in the front of the pagoda's just a lawn ornament for the "courtyard" according to my kid:



Once the petrified wood is situated, I might get one more round of red stemmed plants to offset them, either tall behind or short in front.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Here we go! My son picked out the right two to be the bridge, and the biggest piece we had the hardest time deciding the orientation but this way makes a mini alcove-grotto so it's nice. The side pieces were the quickest and easiest to place. I love how the "bark" parts make for a great mountain rangey feel, but then some unexpected color pops through. What a difference from no petrified wood to adding it! I have a few more plants coming to add red stemmed fencing to the far back, but the cabomba idea 'tween the rocks worked well. Here are the pics!









Oh, and those 11 Sakura Red Shrimp can hide like NOBODY'S business! Max I only see 6 at a time, today just 3, haha - but then peekaboo you see one emerge!

 
#7 ·
Thanks! And agreed, the petrified wood captures all the surprising angles of something organic, yet it's rock - very cool! Just a few minutes looking at it and you see something else you've never seen. Here's another shot, and the view changes on you again!

 
#9 · (Edited)
Thanks! Ill keep an eye on the pH, and run a test tonight too.

Oh, and I put the carbon bag in the fluval filter after putting the petrified wood in, just in case there's more than just a trace of minerals on there - I did scrub them all before putting them in though (my son actually helped with that too, thanks!) so no strange Arizona dirt should be floating around there, but you never know. I'll keep the carbon in there for a month then toss it if everything looks a-ok.
 
#12 ·
Nice! Everything looks good! Glad you and your son are both doing the project together and enjoying it! Are all your tetras still there? Haha. I was reading that when the emperor tetras get bigger they can actually eat the shrimps... Hopefully you have a large enough community by then!

What other fishes do you plan on getting? Anyways, GL!
 
#13 ·
Thanks! Yep the ten tetras are happily schooling around! I intentionally asked for juvie shrimp so they'd grow up used to this tank, but yeah I hope the tetra don't develop a taste for them before the shrimp molt up a few sizes! Actually the biggest shrimp female is pretty bold, just walks out there into the open and eyeballs curious tetras (who thankfully don't nip at her).

My son's having so much fun with the tank, that my daughter wants to get in on the action - in a few weeks we'll head to Pacific and let her choose a few Mickey Mouse platys, and then that should be it as far as fauna in the tank - a 20H shouldn't hold much more than that, right?

Oh, and I forgot, if the pH is too high and the water starts getting hard because of the petrified wood, I can always up the CO2 booster since right now I'm only putting in half the suggested daily dosage.

Oh, and just in case I forgot, the little gal left this message for me on our "to do" board this morning:

 
#33 ·
Thanks! Yep the ten tetras are happily schooling around! I intentionally asked for juvie shrimp so they'd grow up used to this tank, but yeah I hope the tetra don't develop a taste for them before the shrimp molt up a few sizes! Actually the biggest shrimp female is pretty bold, just walks out there into the open and eyeballs curious tetras (who thankfully don't nip at her).

My son's having so much fun with the tank, that my daughter wants to get in on the action - in a few weeks we'll head to Pacific and let her choose a few Mickey Mouse platys, and then that should be it as far as fauna in the tank - a 20H shouldn't hold much more than that, right?

Oh, and I forgot, if the pH is too high and the water starts getting hard because of the petrified wood, I can always up the CO2 booster since right now I'm only putting in half the suggested daily dosage.

Oh, and just in case I forgot, the little gal left this message for me on our "to do" board this morning:

I recall about 15 years ago, my kids wanted those mickey mouse platys as well. We also had white platys with black spots that were called (at the time) dalmation platys. I had forgotten those fish until I saw your little girl's message. Come to think of it, I don't see those dalmation platys anymore. Or maybe they're calling them panda platys now! :hihi:
 
#14 · (Edited)
Well the tank is definitely not ready for more fish yet. Bacteria is having a hard time keeping up with the addition of tetra and shrimp. Since they've been added it's been a daily water test, seeing the ammonia at .25-.5 and nitrates 30-40. I did 20% water changes. However today I had to be away from home, and of course when I finally got home near midnight the shrimp were hiding and the fish were not swimming right and the gills had streaks of blood yikes! Poisoning! Instantly did a test, ammonia was .5, nitrates 40, and oh no I even saw some nitrites! Did a 40 percent water change immediately with prime and got the levels to .25 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 5 nitrates. I thought it might have been the petrified wood but i did a pH test before the water change and it was 6.8, after water change was 6.6, both seemed fine. Probably it was what i initially thought - the bacteria just hasn't caught up yet. I also took all debris off the prefilter and out of the filter, and just tossed the carbon filter, that thing wasn't helping. It's been an hour now since the water change and everything looks fine, guess I'll sleep on it and make certain I'm home to do water changes each night before it's too late!

BTW the hiding shrimp came out of hiding after the water change - I'm glad they made it!
 
#16 ·
Did you cycle the tank? or use some cycling supplement? I would recommending tetra safestart or seachem stability asap and follow the dose on the bottle.

The biggest issue I could see is the sensitivity of shrimp to ammonia, with any amount its almost guaranteed death either over time, instantly, or on the next molt. Once that happens nitrites will spike with a dead body hiding somewhere.

I use TSS or stability regularly with no issues. Some would say CYCLE the tank....but that's clearly not an option at this point :D
 
#17 · (Edited)
Yep it was fishless cycled with Dr.Tim one and only, it was ammonia 0 nitrite 0 nitrate 20 i think when i introduced the tetra. i think i found another problem - my aquaclear 30 was BLASTING so the poor tetra had no rest - they might have shown stress and blood vessels near the gills because they were popping veins trying to swim against a too strong current all day long. could be that over a water quality thing, since the shrimp seem just fine, and those lil fellas could rest on the ground away from current. well i turned that way down and that seems to have the tetra less frantic, and the plants beneath the flow unbowed.

Probably all of them put together - poisoned, tired and stressed from too strong a filter current flow.
 
#18 ·
Wow, amazing what one emergency 40% water change (and lowering the power of the filter flow) can do! Overnight the cloudiness on the bodies are gone and the red lines are too, and the tetra are zipping around totally normally. WHEW. I thought I'd lose all my tetra all at once!

And I spotted three shrimp this morn, doing their thing. They seem to not have been affected at all, and I'm not worried about the rest I can't see, since those were the smallest and have been hiding since minute one.

Water change came with Prime, and I put CO2 booster in this morning. A bit of Flourish too since I figured all that daily water changing probably took lots of nutrients with it too. Tossed the carbon filter last night, just one sponge filter and the biostones in there now.
 
#19 · (Edited)
Well this morning I saw that one tetra had a red looking string thing sticking out of its anus - Camallanus Worms is the worst case, I'm not taking any chances, probably that fish in all the stress and poor health is succumbing to that worm, so I'm ordering the dewormer flake III with Levamisole for all the fish from Angels Plus. Not sure if it's from the fish food I got from Win, or just a parasite in the tank of Emperor Tetra from Win, but either way I think I better toss that fish food and medicate these fish ASAP!

Now I'm thinking the listlessness and red streaks may be from worms? Which would mean they ALL have it? I'm paranoid! The medication can't get here fast enough!! Yeah those platys aren't coming into the tank until this thing is taken care of!
 
#20 ·
Well I couldn't wait. I swung by Petco to start the meds - mixed freeze dried bloodworms with this:

http://www.petco.com/product/105336/8-in-1-safe-guard-4-Canine-Dewormer.aspx

Once it was nice and absorbed (a tenth of a gram for a 20 gal tank plus whatever bloodworms the fish felt like sucking in) I left it alone for a few hours - now, I can't even tell which tetra was the one with the worm sticking out of it. I'll re-do the dose for 2 more days and that should get me to the flakes of the other meds I ordered for next week's medicating.
 
#21 ·
Checked on the fish today they all seem fine. Installed a CO2 drop checker last night and it was still blue, but I put some booster in anyhow. Skipping feeding in the morning, will give medicated bloodworms in the evening after a water test and maybe another water change. I wanted to gravel vac but everything is surrounded by flora- I did vac the marimo ball area tho.
 
#22 · (Edited)
The meds are definitely working as intended - snails dead due to meds in water (so i know it's in the water and effective), no more red worms, and fish are pooping out white shriveled up worms like crazy. Can't gravel vac those up since plants in the way, but I'll leave it to the water dosing to finish them off. Round two will be the medicated flakes with the lev-something coming later this week. I'll do one more dose of this dog med tomorrow.

On a happier note, new Ludwigia Repens x Arcuata and Hygro Difformis came today thanks to Doc7 - planted them and looking good. Took that chance to 'scape a bit, adding some more light gravel as a path to the pagoda, and eco-complete behind the rocks for more plant anchoring.

Edit - 2 hours after meds and the Tetra are definitely doing much better. All signs of red lines on the bodies are gone, they are expelling dead white worm chunks like nobody's business, and the shrimp are doing fine - heck i even saw 2 snails moving around. Tomorrow will be the last dog dose for sure.
 
#23 ·
Here are the pics - btw, strangely my son didn't seem bothered at all about the fact that the fish had worms, he thought it was cool that we were using bloodworms to soak up the meds, then the fish ate the bloodworms, then dead worms came out. Fascination with the macabre begins early, I guess! Oh, and the fluval pre-filter came, far more ninja than the big yellow filter i had on there before. Here are pics!



We found a big rock in the gravel, so we just gave the marimo ball a little hat:



forgive the bit of milkiness in the water, that's a combo of just putting in the new gravel and eco-complete, and probably a bit of bacterial bloom too until the cycle catches back up. I found one more of the bigger snails still moving about too, so i guess the dog meds didn't wipe them all out!



And here's a shrimp shot - that pagoda courtyard shows off how much green type detrius is probably covering the substrate too - but i can't vac it up without sucking up the plants! Well the shrimp sure seem to like eating that layer anyhow.

 
#26 · (Edited)
Haven't seen any shrimp since the last dog med dose, but the fish are definitely benefiting - three tetra all expelling worms at the same time, it's a wormocalypse! I'm sure the shrimp are fine, they're just good hiders.

So that's 3 days straight with the fenben. The Levamisole flakes should be coming soon, I'll do a water change tomorrow to get rid of what worm bodies i can, and Charles just got back to me about the water column Levamisole, so by the end of the week i'll be able to do that 3-day treatment too. I'm going to attack this thing and wipe it all out! Big worms are tough on little tetra!
 
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