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50G with 30G sump - month 10 update

18K views 95 replies 12 participants last post by  crazymittens 
#1 · (Edited)
I will have more to update tomorrow after I pick up the equipment. A friend of mine has graciously offered the use of his tanks/etc while he is out of the country for work (years), so I will be picking up 2-3 10-gallon tanks and one 30-gallon tank (all glass).

Goals
The goals for this tank are as follows:
  1. Learn how to run and enjoy an aquarium
  2. Low maintenance (minimal water changes, fert requirements)
  3. Low-light to save on power costs
  4. Low-tech - remove complication of CO2
  5. Low-cost (relatively, anways)

Water quality
The water, from what I know, is ~pH7 and moderately hard, so what goes in the tank must be able to deal with this - I do not want to deal with changing water chemistry via expensive chemicals.

What's in the tank
Substrate: Mineralized topsoil (AaronT's method) capped with Black Diamond 20/40 blasting grit
Plants: Anubias, Java fern, some type of moss, Rotala, Hygro
Fish: Cherry barb
Inverts: Red cherry shrimp (clean the plants/substrate), Ramshorn snails (clean the glass)

Infrastructure
I would like to experiment with sumps/overflows, but will probably keep things simple to start. 30G on its own and a 10G to breed the RCS. One of the spare 10Gs will be an emergency quarantine tank.

Timeline
  1. Mineralize the topsoil
  2. Lay the mud, then plant everything
  3. 2-3 weeks to cycle
  4. Add the RCS (10-15 to start)
  5. Give it 2-4 weeks for the RCS to get established
  6. Add a school of cherry barbs (~dozen)
  7. Enjoy, maintain, and document progress


More to come, and pictures, of course.
 
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#28 ·
Picking the glass up tonight - the two pieces came to $17.11, not bad!

Took a look around for knurling tools...very expensive/hard to find. I think I'll move more in a 'hex-head' thumbscrew for a few reasons. First, completely round would mean zero-grip if any kind of algae or film formed on the surface. Second, knurling or a slot pattern would fill with aforementioned algae/film and require occasional cleaning. Third, a hex shape gives enough grip without looking ridiculous, and is relatively easy to make.

I plan to leave a 'shoulder' on the threaded rod portion to fit snugly into the drip tray itself. The top end of the shoulder will then be cemented (E-6000 adhesive) into the 'top/nut' plexi piece.

Next tasks:
  1. Finish MTS process. (let dry out; first round mesh sift; second mesh sift; store in tub)
  2. Install overflow box. (prepare jig; measure/mark; initial silicone; glass placement; final silicone; tape)
  3. Mark out drill points on 50G. (measure/mark)
  4. Fabricate drip plate thumbscrews. (thread plastic pieces; cut top portions; assemble)
  5. Fabricate drip plate. (trim/drill/tap drip plate rests; measure/mark/cut drip plate; measure/mark/drill press drip holes; test; enlarge if necessary)

Drip plate
For the drip tray hole sizing, I will start at 1/16" and test. Once the initial holes have been drilled on the drill press, I can re-size them using the hand driver quickly enough. I think the idea is to have as many holes as possible while keeping enough standing water to allow the drip tray to 'drip' from every hole. I am sure there is fancy maths that can be done to calculate the exact hole size off the bat, but I didn't do that well at math (probably for lack of trying) and this is DIY, not mass production. If it takes 1-2 re-sizings, that's fine. Probably less extra time involved than the calculations. :)

Overflow box
I had thought about installing the overflow box right away (more time to cure, good visual prior to drilling), but decided against it - too much could go wrong. Also, I might discover that the 5" depth I've specified is too deep and need the glass re-cut to fit. Finally, if I have to drill for the returns, much easier to do that out of the tank.

Edit: This guy has a great overview of his BeanAnimal/coast-to-coast system: http://www.glassreef.com/basics_index.htm
 
#29 ·
Again, apologies for the fuzzy pictures...it's the best RIM can do. Later on I'll take some time to do nice shots with the Canon and tripod.

Updates
Glass
The overflow glass is about 1/8" too short, but I think after a liberal dose of silicone things should hold up fine.

Drip tray
The tray rests were cut, tapped, and siliconed in place last night. I am not super happy with the end result - the curves I cut on the band saw are not symmetrical, the holes are not symmetrically spaced - but since I have so little time, and this will be hidden, we'll go with it. Functionality won't be impaired, just aesthetics.

As you can see, all the threaded portions are done, just have to cut the hex heads and adhere them in place.





Driftwood/rock design v1:
My wife started work on the driftwood and rocks last night while I worked on the drip tray. I am liking how the driftwood fits together, but the rocks will need smashing/chipping. Right now the rocks cover ~40% of the soil - I'd like that number to be closer to ~15% to allow for more stem plants. She'll also be trying to integrate some sort of cave/rock bridge thingy to provide shelter for fish should the plants have issues.




Coming up next...
  • Sump drip tray
  • Overflow box
  • Finish MTS

This weekend will be busy, hopefully the sump stuff can be finished up. Another item I forgot about was finding coarse filter media to line the drip tray with. Maybe I'll just forego that and use the filter socks for testing.

Just saw that the PVC parts are out for delivery today!! Sweet.
 
#31 ·
Quick update.

Cut the drip tray to size, then realized that due to the top trim piece being in the way, it would never fit, so had to cut it in half.

Chop chop.


Then I marked (poorly) the intersection points for the holes, chucked my smallest drill bit into the drill press, clamped the two pieces together and drilled away.

I need more 'small and tiny' clamps...


Semi-final result:



As you can see, I left the wrapping on prior to testing. Why? Because I knew they still needed work, of course! And ya, a lot. The holes need cleaning out for sure - no water got through them. Somewhat surprisingly, the gaps at the edges I assumed would need filling leaked very little water - possibly due to some wacky pressure/hydraulic issues.

I tested by dumping a pail of water on top of the drip tray. Some got in the sump baffle space, raising the sump baffle water past the level of water in the sump drain area.

This caused a lot of air to want to escape the drain area (scrubbie area), only it couldn't because of all the water sitting in the drip tray area!

A lot of very rude noises resulted, along with the drip trays being tossed about like a ship in stormy seas.


...Next up...I re-drill out the holes and test again. Will try and get a picture of the 'burping'.
 
#33 ·
Update...

Plumbing
It arrived! After the import/brokerage fees ($58), it'll be the last time I order anything via UPS from the US, and I mis-ordered the caps (I had initially looked at the NPT, but ended up adding slip to the cart :( ), but that's not a big deal, and I will look harder for a Canadian source next time. It's nice to have it all in one shot, anyway.



MTS
After the screening process (which left me with much shallower fingerprints), I watered down the MTS and - no smell! At all...only the smell of the water. I am calling it done like dinner, and will add the clay when I have a moment. For reference, two bags of soil gave me 2/3 of that storage container.

The screen material is the 'pet-safe' type - I would guess that using metal screening would destroy your hands.

The method for screening was:
  • Clamp screening to tub
  • Shovelful of soil
  • Spread/shake around with hands, pressing into the screen slightly
  • Be sure to break up clumps by rubbing them between hands
  • When obvious that remainder is not going through, remove from screen
  • Repeat process

The nylon screen material:


Post-screening:


This was left out of two bags of soil:


Kinda like wet concrete (ok, really wet concrete):


A little plantedtank love... :)


Sump
The initial drip flow size:


Pumps seem to hold 3-4" of water above the tray.


The burping I mentioned lifting the panels:


Can you spot the design flaw?


Water level below drip tray:


So, still some work. I am thinking I'll need to remove the drip tray rests and move them. Guessing you can see the issue. Drip tray is at the same height as the baffle overflow, meaning there is no room for 'dripping'. Pretty sure I'll be removing the tray rests, cleaning up the mess, and then re-installing them 1.5" above the baffle height. Won't give me a huge amount of space above for water, but I'll also enlarge the drip holes a bit to give more flow.
 
#35 ·
i'd say the flaw is you have the drip plate on the same level as the high point of your baffle, if you can remove your baffel and use a shorter piece of glass to lower the level of water. I love sumps, personally i would have went with filter socks over a drip pan and toss a buck of lava rock in the sump and i mean all over even around the pump, you can put the rock in filter bags if you want but you should be fine just letting it hang loose
 
#36 · (Edited)
Just pics for now, text in the morning. Long day...

Update: Ok, text added.

Prep-work:
Note how I have marked the holes (dry-erase marker) on the cutting face AND the inside. This was definitely handy.





What did I learn here? Use the plumber's putty for just one hole at a time. Why? Protip: if your reservoir is around three hole points, and you turn one of them into an actual hole...it will drain. No kidding.

Next time I would:
  • Make dams around all three to begin with, would limit the mess (and there was a big mess of water/glass dust).
  • Put the tape on BEFORE I start drilling - for all the holes.
  • Tape some sort of cup/container underneath the hole to limit the splashing/mess.
  • Use blue tape to mark out the holes on the drilling surface - the dry-erase marker wiped off like a dry-erase marker.

Levelling the work surface for an even cut:
It wasn't perfect, but ended up being good enough.



Drill press set for ~900RPM
The belt ended up slipping off mid-way through the first cut - pulleys were too out of line - so I settled for the next pulley up on the drill side.

You can calculate this by taking the motor pulley diameter divided by the spindle pulley diameter, times the motor speed.

1725RPM * (2/4) = ~860RPM (early morning maths...)

I think the second option got me somewhere around 1100RPM, still within spec for drilling glass.




Drilling as easy as 1-2-3!
Ok, this is a lie. Hole#1 took about 1 hour, mainly because I was terrified of breaking the glass. Hole#2 took about 45 minutes, because after 30 mins of little progress I got impatient. Hole#3 took about 45 minutes because that's about as fast as I would cut. The two smaller holes each took about 30-40 minutes.

Very little chip-out on the 1" holes, and moderate chip-out on the 1.25" holes (one had a 0.25" shallow chip), despite the tape. Pretty sure a quality bit would make a difference here. The lesson is: $10 worth of drill bits will do the job, but will take FOREVER and not give you a perfect hole.

I learned how to properly read my drill press depth measurement during this process - it is marked with 1/64 graduations, not 1/16. :)





If they look out of line, it's just an optical illusion. You can trust me on that.



Drill bit after a few holes:


Final product:
Well, I'd have to say this was a success. The tank is in one piece, cuts are acceptable (covered by bulkheads), and even though the alignment wasn't perfect, things are in spec.

If anyone is attempting to do this with a hand drill...wow...have fun. Maybe smaller holes would not be so bad, or better bits would make a big difference.

Anyway, we can get back to the sump fixin' now. More to come. (oh, and I need to order another 1" bulkhead...oops)


 
#38 ·
Quick update...
I took a look at the Sumpery, annnd promptly moved on to the shiny.

Some test fitting of the PVC bits, also cut some of the connector pieces required for the drains.

New items on my list:
  • We'll need to drill the overflow box for sure to accommodate the returns - they won't fit as I originally intended. (7/8" bit ordered)
  • The caps are threaded, not slip, so I will be trying to make a 'gasket' of silicone - making lemonade out of lemons, as it were.
  • I am indeed out of PVC cement/solvent.

What I learned:
  • There is just no way to get the piping fully into the fittings. No way, man.
  • This project is expensive, but we're close now.
  • I appear to be having an allergic reaction to PVC shavings. Indeed.

Bulkheads installed:
A good feeling, this is.




BeanAnimal:
It starts to take shape!! Thankfully the holes I drilled are close enough that shifting the bulkheads around gives me pretty darn close alignment.



So fresh and so clean...
I spent 20 minutes cleaning my saw blades with vinegar and a brass brush prior to using. The chop saw blade was so caked in pine sap it could barely cut anything at all - now look at 'er!



Bits and pieces:
Like Lego for aquarists. Or something.



"Threaded" cap:
I say that with hesitation because I did not have an appropriately-sized tap. I drilled the cap out with a Forstner bit on the drill press (using my drill press vise for the first time whee), then gave it a light thread. Since it was close, I "encouraged" the fitting to move into its new home. Fits like a glove! (if you are curious, this is indeed a John Guest fitting, and same for the red line...the online store I ordered from just happened to have it, so why not...)


 
#39 ·
Hole saws shipped today, I'm thinking 7/8" with silicone around it, so if the PVC expands for any reason, there is some play and should not crack the glass. Also need to pick up some female threaded 3/4" fittings for the Loc-Line adapter when I get the PVC cement.

Hm, I should have asked about coarse filters when at Big Al's yesterday.

Shrimpnewbie, thanks for the input. It'll be easier to raise the drip tray than replace the baffle, so that's what we'll do.

I will also be gluing a vertical support onto the bottom of the rests - they stick out too far for the silicone to hold them. Simple enough fix.

This week's to-do list:
  • Finish thumbscrews
  • Adjust drip tray rests & add vertical supports
  • Cut remainder of PVC for BeanAnimal
  • Figure out some method of supporting the drain/return pipes
  • Get jig ready for overflow box installation next week
  • Mask off overflow box silicone areas

I may just re-cut the drip tray rests while I'm at it - the middle piece needs extending anyways.
 
#40 ·
#41 ·
Quick update...had a few minutes after picking up the (hopefully) last batch of goodies from the Depot.

PVC PIPING...ASSEMBLE!



Yup, got the heights within 1/16-1/8" or so, pretty happy about that.

Fitted onto the bulkheads (dry test)
I realized that there is no turning back once the pipes are glued onto the bulkheads - only way the bulkheads are coming out after that is with lots of cutting!

Not sure how I feel about that.

The valves can both be wide open at the same time...about 1/4" to spare...and having all the unions in line is symmetrically satisfying.

I'm thinking for the slip caps fitting on threaded adapters...a bead of silicone inside the top of the cap should allow it to snug down without ripping the silicone off. Can't hurt to try.

One last note - the weight of the plumbing isn't as stressing as I'd thought it might be - with a support piece below the unions it'll hold up just fine.





Tomorrow, if time allows, I'll start on the return plumbing - the drill bit for the overflow box returns should arrive mid-next week, so next weekend will be the drilling and assembly of the overflow.

This week/week-end:
  • Finish sump!!!!
  • Mock up tank/sump for routing of drains
  • Return plumbing
  • Make overflow box jig
  • Mask/prep tank surface for overflow box install

Oh....and install new fuel filter in the Jetta.
 
#42 ·
New tray rests, this time with symmetry. Used the belt and disc sanders with clamps to get this result - much better.

The four outside rests.
Threaded them all together, then sanded.




The two inside rests.
Made new ones, this time 3" wide.


All of them glued and taped.
I gave all the rests vertical supports. Used the blue tape prior to gluing to ensure they stayed where I wanted them post-glue. Glued with E6000.



Slight fix for the scrubbies.
Prevents them from floating on their own. I may still need to weigh them down a bit, but they are holding much better now. I used a lot of zip ties, but I've had that bag since high school...best $15 I ever spent!





I have to wait 48 hours for the E6000 to fully cure, then silicone the rests into place. 24 hours, and then test the new drip trays.

In the mean time I can:
  • Source coarse filter foam
  • Get platform ready for plumbing routing/testing in the garage
  • Work on the return plumbing
  • Prep the 50G for the overflow box install
  • Build the jig for the overflow box install
 
#43 ·
Decided to get the return plumbing started. Went with two 45s, as I believe that's better than one 90...not sure by how much. The ball valves probably won't be used, but not a huge penalty to keep them in anyways. The check valves function as unions, so I tried to line them up with the other unions.

Note that the plumbing hanging off the back will be painted matte black.

Return plumbing dry fit:




New drip tray rests in place:


Protip: 'Measure twice, cut once' is analogous to everything.


I was definitely not thinking right in two ways. First, I should have measured centerpoints for all the drip tray rests from the get-go. Second, should not have measured things on the fly in a rush. At least I know that the silicone cleans up really nicely with a razor.
 
#44 ·
We went to a bunch of garage sales today...and wasn't I surprised to see this:




Yup, mini metal lathe! For $40, I couldn't resist. It'll do just fine for small projects, and for helping me learn lathe basics.

Back to tank stuff...
I think the sump is pretty much done except for:
  • Prep the top for drain pipes/returns
  • Source the coarse filter
  • Return hard line plumbing

These are the tops from this tank's life as a 'normal' fish tank.



Secret weapon - rocks!
No float for you!





Drip trays on the new rests
I drilled the drip holes out one larger size today, the new rests are working out great. It's now running in a loop, will let it go for a few days, see how the drip holes work out.






 
#46 ·
Thanks, but you should give kudos to this forum and the people in it...I'm really just taking bits and pieces of design from others and applying the concepts to my situation. Glad you're enjoying it though! (admit it...it's all the pretty pictures, isn't it?) ;)

Quick update on the sump testing...went out this morning to take a look.



Yup, the drip tray area water level is right up to the trim now - twice the level it started at! This is why we test things, folks. :)

I turned off the pumps, let it settle, and turned them back on. Within a minute or two the level was right back up to the trim...odd. The drip holes did not look clogged, and were still flowing the same as before.

Decided to move the pump hoses into a position more resembling what the drains will be doing (vertical flow in the center area of the drip tray), and left things running. Will be out there later on today, so we'll see how it goes.
 
#47 ·
Protip: Getting clean lines with silicone involves removing the tape while the silicone is WET!!

Things I would do differently next time...
  • Mask off the overflow glass
  • Make a fancier jig so that I could pull all the tape at once
  • Use more silicone so I don't end up with gaps









Also, I totally forgot to tape the overflow glass...whups. Guess I'll be razoring the grossness off. I was using the level to ensure that the tank itself was level, and then I could verify that the overflow glass was square.

I moved the glass out of the way, applied a good bead of silicone, and then placed the glass. After I lined it up, made sure it was square, I then used my handy latex gloves to smear the bead so it was smooth and consistent across the whole length.

Would have been a lot nicer if I'd used more silicone and masked off the overflow glass! As it is, I think it'll work fine. Finally, the centrepoint for the return holes in the other piece of overflow glass will be almost exactly in the middle, so that was nice to discover.



 
#49 ·
Ok, real quick update. Been busy with life, hopefully more progress this weekend.

  • Drill bits arrived, so overflow is being finished this week/weekend
  • Ended up (trial and error) with 1/8" drip holes
  • Sump is so close...
  • Plant pickup schedule forthcoming...

I have some pictures, but won't bother posting them, not really informative. I marked out the water lines for the sump after drilling the drip holes out last night (ended up at 1/8"), and checked the levels this morning: All good! Holding about 1.5" of water above the trays, that should work out well. Just that pesky filter to source...

The set of bits arrived for the overflow return through holes, so will drill them tomorrow maybe. I'm hoping to have the overflow assembled before the weekend so I have plenty of time to mock up plumbing.

Finally, we are getting really close to actually having a fish tank, and not just some expensive exercise in fabrication. I will be calling Menagerie back as soon as the plumbing checks out.
 
#50 ·
Update time...been busy.


This, ladies and gentlemen, is why you do NOT enter the shop when under the weather:



Thankfully the tank itself was undamaged (we'll see how it holds up to a week of live testing), and I think the chips themselves are marginal problems for an internal overflow.

Drilling the return holes:
Once again, I made a newbie mistake. The drill bits I ordered were fine...if 3/4" was the OD. Ya. Whups.

Anyway, all it will cost me (besides the not-useful-at-the-moment drill bits) is another $10 for one more 3/4" bulkhead. Could be worse.

Glass drilled out much faster - not sure if it's due to newer and thinner glass, or what. Took all of 10 minutes to drill, and thanks to drilling into the firmly taped bottom and sacrificial piece of wood, the chipout was minimal, much better than last time.





Taped up the overflow glass this time, as well as the interior:


The overflow jig:
I really didn't want to get too fancy, so simple it was! Yes, that is a square clamped to the brace. And yes, it was level. Aside from preventing me taking the tape out, worked great!





The result:
Apologies...pics are awful.





A look at the return 'through' system:
There will be a bulkhead at each piece of glass.



Now, for another issue that puzzles me...the sump levels are...wacky.





You can see how the water level where the 'dripping' takes place is now a good 0.5-1.0" higher, and the return area with the pumps is down about 1.0". The drip hole size must be okay though, because that level has not changed a bit since initially settling down.

Weird. I will not draw any conclusions until I get the full system plumbed up and tested for a full week.

I am happy about how well the dry-erase marker works for this task. :)

Also...putting more rocks into the sump on the trays when I move everything around.
 
#51 ·
It's alive!!!

Okay, but first the painful steps to get there...

Assembling piping and sump:




Mistake #1
The tank was not level! This, of course, meant that the weir was only functional along 2/3 of the overflow.




Returns plumbed...creatively:
Due to the physical constraints of my test area, I didn't have enough height to properly install the plumbing, so had to be a little creative in how it all fit together.



Really creative...
Big Al's doesn't stock 3/4" bulkheads...good ole duct tape to the rescue. Handy indeed.



Filling the tank:


Problem:
The drains were not working correctly, I guessed, because the level got almost to the point of overflowing the emergency drain.





Note the 2/3 weir.




So I (thanks to my wife's suggestion) limited the flow from one of the pumps.



A step in the right direction, for the wrong reasons.




Solutions:
First, I 'submerged' the drains, just by adding a coupling that extended the piping to just below the water level. You will note I also have my coarse filter in place. Such a cost...ouch.



Second, I made the 'adjusted' drain completely air-tight (supposed to be in the design anyway). Yes, that is a latex glove zip-tied to the top of the drain.



New water level:


Full weir:
Forgot to mention...I levelled the tank during all this (well, the stand), so now a nice full weir is present!




Summary of what I learned:
  • The full-siphon drain pipe must be completely air-tight - 100%, not 99%
  • The tank must be level for the weir to function properly
  • Duct tape functions as a ghetto bulkhead
  • A functioning coast-to-coast w. BeanAnimal is totally worth the effort. :D

A note on adjusting the full-siphon drain...not sure why people are suggesting gate valves over ball valves, works great as designed. Anyway, if I crack it open one more 'tick', the entire overflow drains in seconds - at this point it's stable and only a dribble is going down the secondary drain.

I tested by unplugging the pumps - overflow drained in seconds, then just the trickle from the duct tape bulkhead coming in. Plugged them back in, and things had stabilized (full siphon) within 30 seconds.

Super excited....we're almost there! More info on next steps to come.
 
#52 ·
So, what's left?

This coming week:
  1. Let plumbing test run for one week (at least until next weekend).
  2. Find permanent solution to keeping all drains air-tight.
  3. Order bulkhead.
  4. Confirm with Menagerie about plant pick-up.
  5. Contact shrimp people on GTAaquaria, co-ordinate for pick-up.
  6. Double-check list for cycling.

One week at a time...
 
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