Deficiency? - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-02-2015, 06:22 PM Thread Starter
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Deficiency?

Yup another one of these threads. Tank is a dirted 5 gallon hex, aquaclear filter 30, Co2 at 4bps (don't worry no fauna), EI 6 day (alt. micro/macro) method per Zorofox's EI thread (only change is in the micro mix is a teaspoon of GLA iron mixed in the 500ml container, stored in the fridge), KH 2, GH 5-6. pH drop is around 1.3-1.4, lights are about 40PAR for 7 hours a day (yes drop checker is yellow when the lights come on). To me this is a deficiency of some kind but that just shouldn't happen with EI. Personally I find no way this is CO2. Thoughts? [IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG]
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-02-2015, 11:29 PM
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How long have you been following this routine?

If you have a choice, you have a problem, till you elect your choice. No choice, no problem, only consequences, learn to live with them.
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-03-2015, 01:11 AM Thread Starter
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At least a month and a half.
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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-03-2015, 01:21 AM
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Try dosing CSM-B.

Was that 40 PAR reading at the bottom of your tank?

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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-03-2015, 01:27 AM
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I'm actually curious if you get improved growth by lowering CO2. It's very possible that high levels of CO2 are toxic to submerged aquatic plants, similar to how high levels of CO2 are toxic to terrestrial plants. I don't know what the signs of CO2 toxicity are so it would a good experiment to back CO2 down to levels most people use, 15-35ppm
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-03-2015, 02:01 AM Thread Starter
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I recall reading several of Tom's posts rejecting to much CO2 can ever be a problem. I would say that there would be a point if you kept increasing CO2 and light to a certain point where it is just not sustainable but this would be more attributed to light than CO2.

I am open to all thoughts on this, all I ask is to explain your thinking so I can follow your logic/reasoning.
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-03-2015, 02:47 AM
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Our thoughts and reasonings to explain certain phenomena are highly prone to ignorance and misunderstanding. Never accept these explanations at face value. E.g. the YT video which scientifically explains how to get plants red sounds like great advice, and even had Tom Barr's stamp of approval, but it is almost complete BS. I tried all of them, spent month experimenting with those suggestions about light intensity, fertz, temperature, and none of them worked either individually or collectively. It was only when I decided to experiment with light spectrum that I got immediate results in less than a couple of hours. Lights on at 10am. Saw results by 12 noon. That was a holy sh*t moment because I didn't expect any kind of response so quickly. My point is, just because someone is able to make a convincing argument/explanation doesn't mean it's correct. It may very well be prone to ignorance and misunderstanding, which may lead you falling into a certain paradigm that you can't dig yourself out of. How do you explain why you've had these problems for well over a year, trying almost everything, and the problems still persist? That suggests that the paradigm doesn't work in your case.
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-03-2015, 03:16 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcielo lawrencia View Post
Our thoughts and reasonings to explain certain phenomena are highly prone to ignorance and misunderstanding. Never accept these explanations at face value. E.g. the YT video which scientifically explains how to get plants red sounds like great advice, and even had Tom Barr's stamp of approval, but it is almost complete BS. I tried all of them, spent month experimenting with those suggestions about light intensity, fertz, temperature, and none of them worked either individually or collectively. It was only when I decided to experiment with light spectrum that I got immediate results in less than a couple of hours. Lights on at 10am. Saw results by 12 noon. That was a holy sh*t moment because I didn't expect any kind of response so quickly. My point is, just because someone is able to make a convincing argument/explanation doesn't mean it's correct. It may very well be prone to ignorance and misunderstanding, which may lead you falling into a certain paradigm that you can't dig yourself out of. How do you explain why you've had these problems for well over a year, trying almost everything, and the problems still persist? That suggests that the paradigm doesn't work in your case.
100% agree. But an opinion based on logic and reason bears more weight then someone purely throwing ideas out there.
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-03-2015, 07:53 AM
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I would agree with solid here, and say try lowering the co2. The macro nutrient can provide a lot of the plants needs without all the nutrients (replace as well), so my Opinion either lower either

Bump: How's filtration and surface scum? Is ur surface not crystal clear?
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-03-2015, 12:20 PM Thread Starter
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The tank is a small 5 gallon hex. I have a HOB Aquaclear 30 that runs at full power. All the plants have a slight sway and no surface scum.
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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-03-2015, 01:14 PM
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I can easily make plant's look more red with varying the color spectrum, but it does not mean the plant's are any healthier.
That horse has been beat to death in my view.
Truly is a balance of light,CO2,and fertz which most come around to eventually.
If I suspected that it was indeed a nutrient deficiency,then I might look at what it is I am not providing.
EI does a good job of eliminating most deficiencie's with possible exception of Magnesium that is often corrected with the use of GH booster.(might read up on importance of Mg to plant's)
I might try adding a bit more Mg and note any improvement or lack thereof were it me.
I use Epsom salt for Mg in my low tech tank's for all other nutrient's are added via macro/micro's I add once a week.
Perhaps what little Mg is provided with trace mix such as CSM+B is not quite enough for higher energy tank's .
Have no scientific logic to support what would be easy enough to try, and so that is often my approach.
Try,Do,and then speak as to the finding's.
Believe plant's inherently wish to grow,is mostly shotgun approach by me that gives me the best result's .
Give em all a little more of everything, rather than trying to discern how much of each nutrient may actually be needed by one or two species.
If all plant's are suffering,,then I too would suspect nutrient shortage or CO2 distribution issue.
If just one or two plant's are suffering,then maybe they need more than we are making available regardless of present quantities.
Don't cost much to find out.??
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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-03-2015, 01:31 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by roadmaster View Post
I can easily make plant's look more red with varying the color spectrum, but it does not mean the plant's are any healthier.
That horse has been beat to death in my view.
Truly is a balance of light,CO2,and fertz which most come around to eventually.
If I suspected that it was indeed a nutrient deficiency,then I might look at what it is I am not providing.
EI does a good job of eliminating most deficiencie's with possible exception of Magnesium that is often corrected with the use of GH booster.(might read up on importance of Mg to plant's)
I might try adding a bit more Mg and note any improvement or lack thereof were it me.
I use Epsom salt for Mg in my low tech tank's for all other nutrient's are added via macro/micro's I add once a week.
Perhaps what little Mg is provided with trace mix such as CSM+B is not quite enough for higher energy tank's .
Have no scientific logic to support what would be easy enough to try, and so that is often my approach.
Try,Do,and then speak as to the finding's.
Believe plant's inherently wish to grow,is mostly shotgun approach by me that gives me the best result's .
Give em all a little more of everything, rather than trying to discern how much of each nutrient may actually be needed by one or two species.
If all plant's are suffering,,then I too would suspect nutrient shortage or CO2 distribution issue.
If just one or two plant's are suffering,then maybe they need more than we are making available regardless of present quantities.
Don't cost much to find out.??
This was my first hunch too. I added Mg to the micro mix in similar proportions to what can be found from the PPS pro mix. I also add it through the GH booster. Since adding I have seen no improvement. I verified my Mg levels through testing calcium and hardness and they were within the appropriate ranges.

Maybe something is preventing the uptake of a nutrient causing this to look like a deficiency.
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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-03-2015, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcarl_10gal View Post
I verified my Mg levels through testing calcium and hardness and they were within the appropriate ranges.

Maybe something is preventing the uptake of a nutrient causing this to look like a deficiency.
Sometimes (actually pretty often) you have to ignore the numbers and look at the patient. If it looks like a deficiency/toxicity in spite of the numbers, then the numbers are most likely wrong for that particular patient/scenario. Think of it as a drug experiment with a sample size of one. Averages are averages, but the true test is in the single result when applied to the one particular case.

Like @roadmaster said, sometimes plants need more depending on the situation.
I like what he said - try, do, document.

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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-04-2015, 08:09 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the tips everyone. I did a huge water change yesterday. I am going to reduce my micros as my first attempt. I will be doing another large water change on Friday and will start adding micros back on Tuesday being dosed as a PPS Pro amount but only 3 days a week.
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