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post #31 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-06-2013, 04:15 AM Thread Starter
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stunting is a slightly different issue; stunting is more often caused by a lack of growth space, it is very possible to have a fish be stunted yet be the only fish in a tank (IE: a common pleco in a 20L)

Note: aggregation pheromones DO effect the individual emitting them; it is assumed that they effect that individual to a lesser effect but i am unsure whether it has been tested with any degree of accuracy.
The paper I read concluded that some hormone from each is added to the water so that high levels which would follow high fish loads would cause all fish to reduce in size and population. It seemed reaqsonable.

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post #32 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-06-2013, 04:17 AM
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SNIPPY?!?! Who you callin'... Oh you? Oh that's OK.

What's up with their behavior?
I'd say they are extremely bored in a tank with nothing but a piece of pipe... they just kinda drift around, and only get excited when there is food in the tank. My aunt swears they watch TV though....
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post #33 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-06-2013, 04:19 AM
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Is 15 old for an oscar?
Everything I can find says their lifespan is 10-12 years. I'm not sure if hers are actually 15, but they're well over 10 years old... They are the biggest Oscars I've ever seen in person.
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post #34 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-06-2013, 04:19 AM
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SNIPPY?!?! Who you callin'... Oh you? Oh that's OK.

What's up with their behavior?
the best example is with cichlids, aggregation pheromones are the reason there is a dominant male, (Disclaimer: at this point i am working off of memory and logic, i am not a cichlid man). if memory serves the pheromone released by the dominant male inhibit spawning behavior in the sub males, limits their aggression, and causes their colors to dull.

Let me look it up to make sure that info is 100% correct, if anyone wants to chime in and add to my statement or correct something let me know

Long story short: many aggregation pheromones reduce aggression, inhibit or cause spawning behavior, and also may be used as a form of sounding the alarm for fish facing predation
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post #35 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-06-2013, 04:19 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pmcarbrey View Post
stunting is a slightly different issue; stunting is more often caused by a lack of growth space, it is very possible to have a fish be stunted yet be the only fish in a tank (IE: a common pleco in a 20L)

Note: aggregation pheromones DO effect the individual emitting them; it is assumed that they effect that individual to a lesser effect but i am unsure whether it has been tested with any degree of accuracy.
In other words. He concluded that lack of space is relative to bio load and in too small a space the chemical concentration is higher so the fish stunts, due directly to the hormone and indirectly to the amount of space which raises the

Ver. 1.0 80 gallon dirt goldfish tank (defunct)

Ver. 2.0 bare bottom same tank another approach (defunct)

Ver. 3.0 Pool filter sand same tank now

Farming Algae

Goldfish are among the worst fish for beginners.
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post #36 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-06-2013, 04:22 AM
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The paper I read concluded that some hormone from each is added to the water so that high levels which would follow high fish loads would cause all fish to reduce in size and population. It seemed reaqsonable.
i want to say there is a difference between physical stunting and chemical stunting, i haven't done my research on that issue though so i am not sure. but you're right, that does sound reasonable and is likely correct

EDIT: someone PM'd me this link, you may want to check it out! looks like some interesting stuff http://www.carpbusters.com/documents...4.NZJfinal.pdf
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post #37 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-06-2013, 04:26 AM Thread Starter
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It sounds like those oscar fish are doing just fine or better. Whatever hormone accumulation issues they are up against don't sound dangerous per se.

Ver. 1.0 80 gallon dirt goldfish tank (defunct)

Ver. 2.0 bare bottom same tank another approach (defunct)

Ver. 3.0 Pool filter sand same tank now

Farming Algae

Goldfish are among the worst fish for beginners.
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post #38 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-06-2013, 04:43 AM Thread Starter
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i want to say there is a difference between physical stunting and chemical stunting, i haven't done my research on that issue though so i am not sure. but you're right, that does sound reasonable and is likely correct

EDIT: someone PM'd me this link, you may want to check it out! looks like some interesting stuff http://www.carpbusters.com/documents...4.NZJfinal.pdf
Yeah it is cool. It didn't address hormone triggered stunting though. The one i read did and said that stunting from a small environment had the same chemical trigger mechanism, but it's just one mans conclusion. Physical and chemical being the same thing. The fish in the small tank has such a high chem level it thinks there are too many fish. In Fish respond too quickly to horm. to undo the damage with water changes but in this theory a fish in a tiny tank would not stunt if it had fresh water flowthrough 24/7. I don't know. At any rate It's not poison. The oscars are one of many tales of no water changes working out fine. I still feel I am safer to change water even at a staedy non increasing 3-5ppm NO3. Hormones are not the only things that can accumulate... but who knows? Perhaps if the nitrogen is used up and the physical waste sludge is removed there ain't much left to worry about removing with water changes.

Ver. 1.0 80 gallon dirt goldfish tank (defunct)

Ver. 2.0 bare bottom same tank another approach (defunct)

Ver. 3.0 Pool filter sand same tank now

Farming Algae

Goldfish are among the worst fish for beginners.
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post #39 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-06-2013, 05:02 AM
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you would need to account for every stage of the food chain if you wanted to have a true self sustaining tank. you would need true bottom feeding omnivores, scavengers, feeder cultures, primary and tertiary consumers and a single (or pair) of upper lever predator(s). you would also need to accept the growth of algaes and normally undesirable microbes/creatures as a necessary part of the ecosystem
I completely agree that you would need to account for all these variables and much more. It would be a very demanding task to take into account, but I'm sure someone, somewhere has been able to sustain such a thing to some degree...if not for a long time, maybe a shorter period.

The overall process of ecosystems, food webs and the linkages between organisms (plants, animals, algae, bacteria, etc.) absolutely fascinates me. I'm always curious about how everything is connected! (Please keep in mind I'm an undergrad and still learning about all this stuff ).

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...Long story short: many aggregation pheromones reduce aggression, inhibit or cause spawning behavior, and also may be used as a form of sounding the alarm for fish facing predation
I know some plants have the ability to put off a chemical to avoid being eaten by herbivores/omnivores but it would be interesting to see ability in fish. Given the variety of fishes it wouldn't surprise me if it does.

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post #40 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-06-2013, 05:10 AM
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I got away with it for ten months in a well stocked but not over stocked system before it grew lifeforms I did not enjoy. So no heavily stocked tank can go without changes even if the plants eat all the nitrogen? Is that the consensus or is the debate still on?
That would be the consensus, debate closed.

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post #41 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-06-2013, 10:35 PM
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Having neglected my fair share of tanks I've found that the fish will get used to the water slowly stagnating and survive just fine until something changes: you finally do a water change or you try to add a new fish- and then you get complete melt down
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post #42 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-08-2013, 03:17 AM
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evaporation removing water contaminates, the vast array of flora fauna using nitrites and nitrates, some water contaminates sinking through the soil into the water table, and rain adding a regular and large amount of water to replenish what was lost and dilute the remaining contaminates.
Huh? Could you explain what else is taken out during evaporation other than water vapor, please? Also, what do nitrifying bacteria and living plants do in the tank? And, I would also reason that the fair majority of contaminants in a lake or other body of water is not lost in a "subterranean" process, but taken up mostly by plants, which can be reintroduced into the same ecosystem when the plants die in the fall. The idea that a lake undergoes a type of water change due to rainfall is not true. Water levels may rise or fall due to evaporation and rainfall, but conditions remain the same more or less. In a lake or pond, or ocean, hot and cold lead to water column turnover which has a much bigger impact on the overall condition of those bodies of water. The closest you could come to the idea of a "water change" in a traditional sense would be a small stream or creek which may be subjected to heavy rainfalls from time to time perhaps flushing a deluge of fresh water into the ecosystems.
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post #43 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-09-2013, 06:23 AM
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you will still need to change the water. There are other toxins that can build up and minerals that can become depleted. However tapwater can contain anything up to 50 mg/l of nitrate so you may actually be adding nitrate to your tank by performing a water change
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post #44 of 44 (permalink) Old 03-09-2013, 09:51 PM
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Nope, you don't need to! Toxins in an aquarium setting can all be removed based on plant/stock ratios. I promise you that. Minerals can be replenished either through top off or by dosing. If you don't believe me, ask Diana Walsted.

Now, please note that I'm saying that you don't "have to"; I'm not suggesting that you do. But, no, you don't HAVE TO change the water if you know what you're doing.
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