Twisted, deformed growth - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 89 (permalink) Old 03-26-2017, 05:31 PM Thread Starter
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Twisted, deformed growth

So according to the API gh and kh tests I have a dgh of 14 and a dkh of 6.5. I have noticed leaf curling, twisting and crinkling on my ludwigia super red and ovalis and occasionally on my ar mini. Seems to come and go and effects different leafs at different times. I have read these symptoms can be attributed to low calcium/magnesium levels. I wonder if this is the cause because I thought that the API gh test is mainly testing for calcium/magnesium? Here's the report: Click image for larger version

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ID:	737098 could sodium be throwing off my test readings. The report seems to show low levels of calcium and magnesium. Thoughts? And thanks for any input.


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post #2 of 89 (permalink) Old 03-26-2017, 05:55 PM
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Hi Willcooper,

Are the "leaf curling, twisting and crinkling on my ludwigia super red and ovalis and occasionally on my ar mini." on just newer growth? Ca deficiency is typically characterized as a 'hook' downward at the leaf tip. Twisted leaves are a symptom of a possible molybdenum deficiency. Yes, sometimes you may have high dKH and dGH and still be seeing signs of Ca or Mg deficiency. Sometimes there is a excess or Mg which can effect the uptake of Ca.
Quote:
ammonium or magnesium excess may induce a calcium deficiency in plants
Although I don't believe I have experienced it I have read that lower levels of CO2 can cause the same issue of curled and twisting leaves, especially on new growth.

Roy
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post #3 of 89 (permalink) Old 03-26-2017, 06:15 PM Thread Starter
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Co2 was my first thought. About a week ago I increased it from a 1.0 ph drop to a 1.2 ph drop. The new growth is the problem on the ludwigia red and prob on the ovalis too just more apparent on the red. Pics aren't great (cell phone). Click image for larger version

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I dose;
50% water change then
1/4+1/8th+1/32 teaspoon kno3, 1/16th kh2po4, 1/2 k2so4 (three times a week)
1/8th csm+b (3 times a week)

Tap water starts out 2.5 ppm nitrate plus what I dose but I use an API nitrate test kit, which I don't trust, so total levels are uncertain.


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post #4 of 89 (permalink) Old 03-26-2017, 06:36 PM
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Hi Willcooper,

Actually, the pics are pretty good! The second picture, upper right hand corner, Hygrophila leaf shows the definite 'hook' of Ca deficiency, Same picture, the leaves look 'scorched' with interveinal chlorosis. Third picture, the Ludwigia has curled, deformed leaf development with leaf edges turning downward. Fourth picture same.

Will, I need a tank size for the dosing levels to be relevant.

Roy
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post #5 of 89 (permalink) Old 03-26-2017, 07:56 PM Thread Starter
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Water quality report assistance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi Willcooper,



Actually, the pics are pretty good! The second picture, upper right hand corner, Hygrophila leaf shows the definite 'hook' of Ca deficiency, Same picture, the leaves look 'scorched' with interveinal chlorosis. Third picture, the Ludwigia has curled, deformed leaf development with leaf edges turning downward. Fourth picture same.



Will, I need a tank size for the dosing levels to be relevant.


Oh yeah duh. Tank size is a 40 breeder so 44 gallons. The leaf in the top right second picture is just another stem of ovalis. Funny I never thought calcium deficiency was a possibility with my water. I have a calcium test kit in my cart on amazon. Will have it soon. It looks like using ro water and a gh/kh booster will be the path forward. I used to do this when my 20 long was set up. Didn't like the hassle of going to get water every week but maybe it just needs to be done. I don't like the idea of my tap water having such high hardness readings and it not being from calcium/magnesium.

The ovalis looks pretty similar to this from above
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Did quick research. It seems like seachem equilibrium is a good way to go as it contains a few more useful trace elements than barrs gh booster.


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post #6 of 89 (permalink) Old 03-26-2017, 08:22 PM
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Hi Willcooper,

Remember, "magnesium excess may induce a calcium deficiency in plants" so it may not be a lack of Ca but an excess of Mg. Sometimes, even with moderate dGH. it is a good idea to dose Equilibrium / GH Booster to insure there is sufficient Mg and Ca available for the plants.

Roy
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post #7 of 89 (permalink) Old 03-26-2017, 08:30 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi Willcooper,



Remember, "magnesium excess may induce a calcium deficiency in plants" so it may not be a lack of Ca but an excess of Mg. Sometimes, even with moderate dGH. it is a good idea to dose Equilibrium / GH Booster to insure there is sufficient Mg and Ca available for the plants.


Cool. You're looking for about a 5-1 ratio of ca/mg right? I think just using reconstituted ro water will eliminate the goofing around. Oh by the way, do you know how to test for mg? I've searched test kits for it but couldn't find anything.


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post #8 of 89 (permalink) Old 03-27-2017, 12:52 AM
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Hi Willcooper,

Based upon your 40 gallon tank (likely 32 gallon volume with 2" of substrate) you are dosing about 0.377ppm of Fe per dose; Tom Barr regularly doses 0.7+ppm of Fe 3X per week. Unless you have shrimp, I would suggest increasing your Fe dosing to maybe 3/16 tsp (0.566ppm) 3X per week. Wait a week or so and see if the new leaves exhibit the same problems as your current leaves - I would not expect to see much change in the existing leaves. Let us know how it goes!

Roy
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post #9 of 89 (permalink) Old 03-27-2017, 02:04 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi Willcooper,

Based upon your 40 gallon tank (likely 32 gallon volume with 2" of substrate) you are dosing about 0.377ppm of Fe per dose; Tom Barr regularly doses 0.7+ppm of Fe 3X per week. Unless you have shrimp, I would suggest increasing your Fe dosing to maybe 3/16 tsp (0.566ppm) 3X per week. Wait a week or so and see if the new leaves exhibit the same problems as your current leaves - I would not expect to see much change in the existing leaves. Let us know how it goes!


Ok will do. Just did a re-scape so it should give me an indication in about a week when roots develop again.


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post #10 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-07-2017, 11:46 PM Thread Starter
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Name that issue! Calcium or iron or carbon?

Ok I just got the calcium test kit and tested.

Parms:
Ca 100-120ppm
Mg unknown (my water report shows a 5-1 ratio of ca to mg)
Nitrate 20ppm
Phosphates unknown (I dose for 1ppm)
Dgh 14
Dkh 6.5
Ph 6.6 (degassed 7.8) I'm trying to get this to 6.4/6.2 because much of my problem could be this.

I just read about half of the 650 post thread on csm+b issues and targeting fe using it and no other iron source. I have as of Sunday stopped dosing csm+b and have been adding API leaf zone. My thinking was to dose like this for a couple of weeks and then resume csm+b dosing at a lower level. I already have 17ppm of copper in my tap water so it may be that other micro nutrients have been impeading iron absorption. My plan is to dose csm+b to about .2 ppm fe or less and add an edta iron source to achieve a total of .5-.75 fe like Tom Barr does and see if that helps.

Thoughts are def welcome.



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post #11 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-08-2017, 04:48 AM
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That's not Ludwigia ovalis, which has alternate leaves. Might be repens, but hard to say for sure.
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post #12 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-08-2017, 04:52 AM
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-B, boron deficiency
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post #13 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-08-2017, 06:09 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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That's not Ludwigia ovalis, which has alternate leaves. Might be repens, but hard to say for sure.


I bet you're right. Pretty annoyed with a particular online retailer. Every plant I have ordered (3) has been wrong. The coloring is much different than other ludwigias I've had.


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post #14 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-08-2017, 06:17 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcielo lawrencia View Post
-B, boron deficiency


Definitely could be boron but so hard to tell because it seems that carbon, iron and calcium can all cause similar issues. For a long time I was dosing to reach .2ppm of fe through csm+b which yields .025 ppm of boron and recently began doubling that dose but saw no change so that's when I decided earlier this week to lower csm+b dosing and dose iron separately. Are you aware of a target range for boron? I know that can be difficult because so many factors can inhibit uptake. One of the main worries I have is that my tap water may be so rich in micros already and I have read a lot about those micros getting in the way of iron absorption. My copper is at 17ppm out of the tap, for example, which I'm to understand is quite high and can prevent iron and other mineral absorption.

I'm going to go with a lower csm+b dose with an added edta iron source while at the same time increasing co2 as much as is safe. My ludwigias plant still grow pretty quick (5" in ten days) so I should see some signs pretty soon.


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post #15 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-08-2017, 07:37 PM
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so many effects for just one cause
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