My 75g no water change tank - Page 6 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #76 of 328 (permalink) Old 10-11-2016, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by houseofcards View Post
Here your talking about minimum water changes and then you reference Walstad. The Walstad method only works in a very narrow band of aquariums. It sounds to me that you really don't have a lot of experience away from a dirtied tank that probably has easy to grow plants and fairly dim light. You talk about water changes being a negative thing in general, but the reality is that it's just based on what your did, which sounds limited.

Can you give me an example of how one's tank is less resilient. How does removing water on a regular basis make a tank less resilient. What are your removing with the water that the tank would need to stay resilient?

I don't understand this "narrow band of aquariums" argument. I could just as easily say the same for your method: frequent water changes are only justifiable for the very narrow type of tank that you want to keep. You say that frequent water changes are required in order to keep fish-farm-style bioloads and exotic plants that are, for the most part, not truly aquatic in the wild. I consider those tank-goals to be exceedingly narrow. You simply have no right to tell people that their tanks are in poor health merely because they don't maintain outlandishly unnatural conditions.

Before I started keeping sunfish, I had a lush glosso carpet that stayed low, tight, and bright. My blyxa japonica grows thick and bushy. Before I removed it, my ludwigia repens was red. Could I keep HC? Probably not as well as you can. Could HC survive fully submerged in the native habitats of 99% the fish we keep? No chance. So don't tell me that just because I can't keep some trendy exotic that I have an unhealthy tank and that my water change schedule is "lazy".

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Originally Posted by roadmaster View Post
I have no interest in argument for argument's sake.
The concept's/truth's/and experience of shall we say, more seasoned hobbyist's speak for themselves.
Don't/won't hear none of them say any different.
I began caring for fishes 40 yrs ago and learned the hard way these concept's /truth's.
I command no more authority than you, but must in all honesty suggest you widen your horizon's just a tad bit more .
So you yap at people for having what you consider to be poor aquarium maintenance habits and then refuse to provide any supporting argument because "I have no interest in argument for argument's sake."? Well then maybe you shouldn't go around starting arguments. I mean seriously, who do you think you are? You come into this thread about a low tech tank, post some derogatory comments, and then claim that you don't owe anyone an explanation for your criticisms?

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Originally Posted by IntotheWRX View Post
there's not enough room for all of our pride on this forum. shouldn't be any room at all ideally.
I would call this thread "overstocked". Others might suggest it needs a water change.
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post #77 of 328 (permalink) Old 10-12-2016, 12:09 AM
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I would call this thread "overstocked". Others might suggest it needs a water change.
'More water/more ferts .... Less water/less ferts' .... 'great taste ... less filling'

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post #78 of 328 (permalink) Old 10-12-2016, 02:23 AM Thread Starter
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not that it adds to the topic, but I realized that the pic I posted cut off the ends of my tank so here's a better pic for anyone who's interested

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post #79 of 328 (permalink) Old 10-12-2016, 02:24 AM
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I don't understand this "narrow band of aquariums" argument. I could just as easily say the same for your method: frequent water changes are only justifiable for the very narrow type of tank that you want to keep.
.
Yeah the only problem is a water change is beneficial in every tank as long as you dose, you can't say the same about a tank that doesn't receive water changes. Any seasoned hobbyist here knows that and for you to argue any differently simply exposes your lack of experience and your desire to simply argue for arguments sake. Thats probably the reason @roadmaster didn't want to discuss with you further.

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Also, it is my experience that frequent water changes only leave an aquarium dependent on frequent water changes. It's just an unnecessary waste of water and time that leaves your tank less resilient.
I'm still waiting for an explanation on this one. The last time I asked, you pivoted faster than D. Trump
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post #80 of 328 (permalink) Old 10-12-2016, 02:47 AM
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not that it adds to the topic, but I realized that the pic I posted cut off the ends of my tank so here's a better pic for anyone who's interested
What plants are in the big grouping on the right?
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post #81 of 328 (permalink) Old 10-12-2016, 02:50 AM Thread Starter
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What plants are in the big grouping on the right?
Java Ferns and Java Moss in the bottom right. I can't remember the stems that are all up the right side.

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post #82 of 328 (permalink) Old 10-12-2016, 02:53 AM
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Java Ferns and Java Moss in the bottom right. I can't remember the stems that are all up the right side.

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No I mean that big large group. is that Sprite or Wisteria and anything else.
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post #83 of 328 (permalink) Old 10-12-2016, 02:54 AM Thread Starter
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No I mean that big large group. is that Sprite or Wisteria and anything else.
Oh yeah Wisteria

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post #84 of 328 (permalink) Old 10-12-2016, 02:55 AM Thread Starter
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It looks like there's more than the actually is. On my next day off in gonna move them deeper in to the manzanita branche

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post #85 of 328 (permalink) Old 10-12-2016, 03:01 AM
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What could look nice is you can some rocks and put them in front of that big group with the Wisteria and let the Sag grow all around the front of them and fill up the foreground. You could also put the moss on the rocks if you wanted to go that way. Just a suggestion.
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post #86 of 328 (permalink) Old 10-12-2016, 03:05 AM Thread Starter
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What could look nice is you can some rocks and put them in front of that big group with the Wisteria and let the Sag grow all around the front of them and fill up the foreground. You could also put the moss on the rocks if you wanted to go that way. Just a suggestion.
I like your idea but I'll have to see how my branch is shaped to see if that'll work. Thanks you

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post #87 of 328 (permalink) Old 10-12-2016, 03:09 AM
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I like your idea but I'll have to see how my branch is shaped to see if that'll work. Thanks you

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It's always fun to tinker with it when you have the time, enjoy!
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post #88 of 328 (permalink) Old 10-12-2016, 11:59 AM
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Yeah the only problem is a water change is beneficial in every tank as long as you dose, you can't say the same about a tank that doesn't receive water changes. Any seasoned hobbyist here knows that and for you to argue any differently simply exposes your lack of experience and your desire to simply argue for arguments sake. Thats probably the reason @roadmaster didn't want to discuss with you further.
re: "Any seasoned hobbyist". B.S. Walstad didn't invent her method - it is in fact the more traditional way of keeping an aquarium, and a lot of old LFS folk still swear by it. People just started caring more about having water that looks super crystal clear than keeping a balanced ecosystem.

You and roadmaster continue to just insist on dogma rather than provide real support for your arguments.

Two points:

A) Just because something "is beneficial in every tank" doesn't mean everyone has to do it. You have very specific, high end goals for your aquarium in terms of the plants you want to keep (in part, semi-aquatic plants that would not typically survive fully submerged). Asking everyone to subscribe to the same maintenance routine that you have is like a cigar aficionado turning their nose up at someone for not keeping their Marlboros in a humidifier. Sure it wouldn't hurt, but it's completely unnecessary.

B) As it so happens, dissolved organics are in fact beneficial. In nature, humic substances are the source of carbon for aquatic plants. You might be surprised to learn that paintball canisters are very rare in the wild. There is also extensive academic research (in the wild and in aquaria) on the metal-binding benefits of dissolved organics. Finally, Diana Walstad points out that allelopathic chemicals released by plants are among the many organic compounds that accumulate in our tanks. Infrequent water changes allow these chemicals to reach levels which can strongly inhibit algae.

As for fish health, if my fish show good color and are successfully breeding, I assume I'm doing something right.

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I'm still waiting for an explanation on this one. The last time I asked, you pivoted faster than D. Trump
Sorry, there was a lot to respond to.
My explanation for this comes from having tanks that I used to change the water in as frequently as you say I should. When I started going low tech, the tanks kicked back at first: algae, bacteria blooms, etc. But once you get over that first hump, the tank adjusts to infrequent water changes and things stabilize. I assume this is a combination of many factors: more snails to break particles down smaller, more surface area for efficient decomposition; more bacteria to further decompose those particles into dissolved organic carbon and nitrates that plants can eat up; plants that are adapted to take advantage of the organics in the water column (as we know, many plants will change or even shed their leaves to adapt to an aquarium's specific parameters). But if you change the water frequently, none of those adaptations will happen because the environmental conditions for more bacteria and dissolved-organics-loving-plants will not exist (granted, conditions for more snails might exist regardless). That's why I say that people who change their water a lot might be misled by their own experience that frequent water changes are a must: because their tanks aren't adapted to infrequent water changes, so any deviation from weekly 50% change is going to cause problems.
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post #89 of 328 (permalink) Old 10-12-2016, 02:54 PM
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Regular weekly water changes of 25 to 50% are all I have ever done and or suggested to other's.
Is this supposed to be considered too frequent? Waste of time/water?
Have also acknowledged as have other's ,that less frequent than weekly can work with some limitation's.(bio load)
My only gripe was/is/will always be with those who suggest that water changes are over rated and waste of time while caring for fishes that could they speak,,might feel otherwise.
So many things that are unwanted ,unnoticed,or waiting to happen, can easily be kept in check with weekly partial water change.
Don't recall anywhere in this thread where more frequent than weekly was mentioned.
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post #90 of 328 (permalink) Old 10-12-2016, 03:15 PM
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I think it's somewhat short sighted to assume that all tanks benefit from "large water changes as long as there is [chemical fertilizer] dosing". We really can't do direct comparisons of these drastically different methods. The fact that some can't seem to wrap their heads around the more natural approach is almost surprising to me, since it's much closer to what nature does and even a quick look around should convince anyone that it obviously works.

What I'll call the 'Nearly Natural Habitat' creates an ecosystem that mirrors nature. Fish food, fish and plant waste gets decomposed into base elements (nutrients) to feed the plants and in turn the plants purify the water. A balance is struck between the bio-load and the plant mass, so deficiencies must be accounted for. For example, if the bio-load waste is too low relative to the plant mass, the plants won't get enough nutrients. If the bio-load waste is to great, excess nutrients may build up. Another potential shortcoming is that without partial water changes, important minerals may become depleted in time as fish food alone does not supply all of the elements that fish and plants need.

I have come around to thinking that much like a rain in nature, the 'Nearly Natural Habitat' benefits from a modest partial weekly water change of say around 20%. At which time a modest amount of Trace and depending on the source water hardness, a modest amount of Equilibrium may be added to supply Ca and Mg along with necessary missing elements. Depending on the bio-load relative to plant mass, a modest amount of a macro may also be required. If the bio-load is [too] large relative to the plant mass, a slightly larger water change may be required for balance.
I think the health of the plants will display what is necessary (lush, green and slow growing). The key here is a balance that leverages the organic nutrients to feed the plants, relying on far fewer (if any) chemical fertilizer additives. In the end, this should provide the purest water in the habitat for the fish.

So yeah, in the other world of very bright light, CO2, and a chemical fert approach (like EI), a 50% (or greater) water change and more ferts are required.

@houseofcards - you keep saying that my 'Nearly Natural Habitat' approach is "very limited". Although it's likely true I can't grow carpet plants, when I compare your high tech tank to mine, I have a far greater diversity of plants and fish. Yours seems very limited to me.
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Last edited by somewhatshocked; 10-12-2016 at 05:10 PM. Reason: moderator edit - removal of copyrighted photo per owner's request
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