New custom LEDs in the making - Page 2 - The Planted Tank Forum
 2Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #16 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-22-2016, 04:25 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: WI
Posts: 6,452
Quote:
they're planted effort's are dwarfed by those using plain old full spectrum T5's,or T8's as evidenced by photo's
Man, that is a can of worms all by itself..


Quote:
I did however manage to purchase a Biotek Marine BTM3000 par sensor - which is AWESOME. My first measurement at the substrate was like 150 PAR during peak light (which was probably only like 40% power).
Reefbreeders old style w/ custom fw spectrum.


60 Gallon Starfire Dutch

200gal. DIY Led:


NOTE: Not mine.. mine just go to a weedy mess..

"A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure."

Last edited by jeffkrol; 11-22-2016 at 05:57 PM. Reason: edit
jeffkrol is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-22-2016, 09:17 PM
Wannabe Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,634
That's because Luxeon UV efficiency is higher than everyone else and the primary optic doesn't degrade over time. SemiLED is getting there but you still can't push them as hard as Luxeon. SemiLED binning has actually gotten quite good and rapidled actually carries some of the top of line bins but you have to ask for them.
gus6464 is offline  
post #18 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 12:07 AM
Mxx
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: London
Posts: 643
If you're looking to achieve light which is as close a replication of the spectrum and CRI of sunlight then let me try and easily solve that for you.

Build My LED used to do a horticultural fixture designed to accurately replicate sunlight in laboratory conditions. They discontinued production, but you could look up their Solar-Max lights on their site through a web archive such as 'wayback machine'.

They described their Solar-Mad fixtures as follows: "If your research project or growing environment requires that you match natural sunlight in a controlled environment, this spectrum is your best choice. We developed this “white light” 5700K spectrum to replicate sunlight as closely as possible and to meet the needs of our research clients. As opposed to most LED fixtures on the market, this spectrum includes far red light to ensure phytochrome responses are similar to those which occur in the field. While other white light sources, including Fluorescent and Metal Halide, appear white to the human eye, the spectrum profiles are completely different than sunlight. This can cause numerous problems with your research and plant morphology, especially if you are trying to replicate field conditions. As the world's closest approximation to natural sunlight, this visually pleasing spectrum is fast becoming a favorite among university and corporate research labs."

It sounds as if that is what you are discussing/trying to achieve, and so you could do that by just replicating the same LED selection which I copies from their website: (20%) 3000K Warm White, (13%) 3500K Warm White, (13%) 4500K Neutral White, (13%) 5000K Cool White, (7%) 420nm Violet, (7%) 470nm Blue, (7%) 505nm Cyan, (7%) 525nm Green, (7%) 660nm Deep Red and (7%) 730nm Far Red

Here is the spectral graph of the output of that fixture:



Hope that helps!
Mxx is offline  
post #19 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 05:59 AM
Wannabe Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,634
You can order the Ray series from BML still in the PhysioSpec Greenhouse spectrum which basically looks almost identical to that one. Unit is dimmable too and price is not bad at all.

https://fluence.science/store/ray-se...-lights/ray22/

https://fluence.science/technology/p...um-led-lights/
gus6464 is offline  
post #20 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 02:12 PM
Mxx
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: London
Posts: 643
Quote:
Originally Posted by gus6464 View Post
You can order the Ray series from BML still in the PhysioSpec Greenhouse spectrum which basically looks almost identical to that one. Unit is dimmable too and price is not bad at all.

https://fluence.science/store/ray-se...-lights/ray22/

https://fluence.science/technology/p...um-led-lights/
Thanks, I'd seen those available now as well, although I'm not sure if they are quite as waterproof as BML's previous fixtures.
And not quite as good of CRI as their previous Solar-Max series, but certainly a great light which is far better than almost any other in terms of accurate colour representation/CRI.

In any case the OP was seeking the best mix of LED diodes to mimic sunlight, so he can benefit from the knowledge of the people that have already solved that problem if he is building or involved in designing new bulbs/fixtures himself, as can the rest of us too.

In my professional life I've had demonstrations by LED manufacturers who showed the actual differences in how different LED fixtures with 60/80/90/95 CRI represent various colours and I'd have to suggest the difference that CRI made was quite dramatic. So in my view if you want to see the true colours of your fish and plants then CRI is quite important.

As for some of the intermediate wavelengths such as green, even if that contributes very little to photosynthesis I'm still more than happy to have plenty of it in my planted tanks considering that it makes the plants appear a vibrant natural green colour!
Mxx is offline  
post #21 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 03:55 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: WI
Posts: 6,452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mxx View Post
In my professional life I've had demonstrations by LED manufacturers who showed the actual differences in how different LED fixtures with 60/80/90/95 CRI represent various colours and I'd have to suggest the difference that CRI made was quite dramatic. So in my view if you want to see the true colours of your fish and plants then CRI is quite important.
Agreed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mxx View Post
As for some of the intermediate wavelengths such as green, even if that contributes very little to photosynthesis I'm still more than happy to have plenty of it in my planted tanks considering that it makes the plants appear a vibrant natural green colour!
There is plenty of green in white LED's of average color temps..
Cyan is the missing component.
10000k/"actinic" blue in a 2:1 ratio..


Cheap 3000K warm white:



Camera sees thing slightly different than your own visual perception though..Keep that in mind a bit.

Another .. Cyan moonlight.. not my tank..


My soapbox stand is green should always be replaced w/ cyan.. good for CRI..

Only missing components from white LED's are low cyan, low deep red, zero violet and a smidge short in "regular" blue...

"A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure."

Last edited by jeffkrol; 11-23-2016 at 04:23 PM. Reason: edit
jeffkrol is online now  
post #22 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 04:31 PM
Algae Grower
 
redchigh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tuscaloosa, Al
Posts: 83
Focus on 440nm and 660nm, for plants, Balanced by cool white for our eyes.

Bump: Focus on 440nm and 660nm, for plants, Balanced by cool white for our eyes.
redchigh is offline  
post #23 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 05:03 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: WI
Posts: 6,452
Quote:
Originally Posted by redchigh View Post
Focus on 440nm and 660nm, for plants, Balanced by cool white for our eyes.

Bump: Focus on 440nm and 660nm, for plants, Balanced by cool white for our eyes.
High CRI is nigh near impossible w/ this..
SPECTRA

Try it
SPECTRA
20 deep red 10 RB and 60 cool white (8000K) CRI is 58..................
Quote:
* MIXING LIST
----------------------------------------
LED RoyalBlue (440nm) [120°] x10
LED DeepRed (660nm) [120°] x20
LED CoolWhite (8000K) [120°] x60
----------------------------------------

* SIMULATION DATA
----------------------------------------
Luminous flux : 8,204 lm
Radiant flux : 37,050 mW
PPF : 165 umol/s
TCP : 20000 K
CRI : 58
λp : 453 nm
Color : #BE93FF
----------------------------------------

* PERFORMANCE @ 53cm
----------------------------------------
Irradiance : 14 W/m²/s
Illuminance : 3,099 lx
PPFD : 62.5 umol/m²/s
----------------------------------------

by SPECTRA 1.0β @ 1.023world
SPECTRA
doesn't mean it doesn't "work" though...

also check out the sun spectrums.. all peak in the blue/cyan band..

"A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure."
jeffkrol is online now  
post #24 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 09:32 PM
Mxx
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: London
Posts: 643
The Spectra site was a fascinating tool.

With 10 Warm Whites and one of each of the following ten colours it suggests you can achieve a CRI of 98 at 6170 Kelvin. (390, 410, 430, 460, 480, 490, 500m 520, 540, 660 nm) Ensuring those all blend without getting disco effects might be another thing... And that takes 20 chips to get that.

You can also get a CRI of 99 with 1 Cool White, 2 Neutral White, 4 Warm White, and one of each of the following 420, 460, 480, 500, 520, 540 nm. = 13 total chips which is even better and easier to accomplish.
Mxx is offline  
post #25 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 10:08 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: WI
Posts: 6,452
As much as I throw CRI back and forth you do need to be aware of the different "types".. One for below 4000K(-ish, forgot the exact cutoff) and one above..

One Luxeon A at 3000K will give you a CRI of 96..but 53 under the D65 (6500K daylight) standard...


Setting is in "setup".. Auto works as long as K values exceeds the cutoff value..

And no need to go too crazy..
Quote:
* MIXING LIST
----------------------------------------
PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-A ANSI (5000K) [120°] x10
PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-A ANSI (3000K) [120°] x4
PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel Blue (460-480nm) [120°] x1
PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel Cyan (490-510nm) [120°] x1
PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel DeepRed (650-670nm) [120°] x2
----------------------------------------

* SIMULATION DATA
----------------------------------------
Luminous flux : 2,859 lm
Radiant flux : 11,601 mW
PPF : 52.9 umol/s
TCP : 6940 K
CRI : 95

λp : 659 nm
Color : #FFC0DC
----------------------------------------

* PERFORMANCE @ 53cm
----------------------------------------
Irradiance : 4.4 W/m²/s
Illuminance : 1,080 lx
PPFD : 20 umol/m²/s
----------------------------------------

by SPECTRA 1.0β @ 1.023world
SPECTRA
95 at D65 79 at D50...

90 plus at D65 is really good enough for accurate color..

"A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure."
jeffkrol is online now  
post #26 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-24-2016, 06:32 AM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
jturner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 11
Wow this forum is great. So many responses and so much great info. So I guess that my best bet is to try and hit all of the major peak wavelengths for photosynthesis while trying to achieve the highest CRI possible. Using the Osram color calculator software I have come up with a few combinations that seem to do just that with the standard LEDs listed in the software.
Below is the new LED combination that I have come up with for the 60w par38. With all colors blended the CRI ends up being 96 and the CCT is 7100K. I understand that using separate 3w emitters isn't the best for color blending so in real life the spectrum won't be exactly the same as this. Even without perfect blending this combination should still be able to achieve a very high CRI value with a very balanced full spectrum. I will also try to get some sort of diffusers built in with the par38 bulb to increase blending.




JeffKrol: I would have to agree on COB LEDs being really promising especially as a result of their blending capabilities. I had actually enquired early on about customizing some COB emitters. I can get pretty well any combination of colors and on different controllable channels so in theory I could make a COB emitter with CRI that rivals YUJI or SORAA by blending different color chips. The problem was finding a manufacturer for a fixture. I think that I will have to do more work on this.
For now what do you guys think? If the 3w diodes are blended well enough shouldn't this be a really good spectrum?
jturner is offline  
post #27 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-24-2016, 09:10 AM
Wannabe Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,634
Too much cyan not enough warm white.
gus6464 is offline  
post #28 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-24-2016, 01:06 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: WI
Posts: 6,452
Not sure if I agree w/ th too much cyan, not enough warm white.
I will caution that cyan (by extension green) is a very dominant color for visual perception.
Since human vision is attuned to this band you will "see" more greenish than would be predicted by data..




BUT you are sort of at the point where theory needs to be tested..

"A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure."
jeffkrol is online now  
post #29 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-25-2016, 11:56 PM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
jturner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 11
I was expecting someone to say too much cyan. I was thinking the same thing but the additional cyan increased the CRI value a good amount. I took out one cyan and added one more warm white. I also substituted one of the 490nm cyans for a 505nm. The resulting spectrum gets rid of the massive spike in the cyan area and overall I think it will be nicer. The CRI value drops to 91(which is still pretty good) and the CCT ends up being about 6000K. Here is the resulting spectrum. If anyone has more input on the par38s let me know. I think its time I get some samples made and see how they perform in real life.



Now onto the topic of COB LEDs because I really see a lot of potential in this technology. I have been in contact with another manufacturer for the past couple days who is able to customize COB chips to my exact specifications as well as have various tunable channels. The manufacturer is also able to build a fixture. I have been playing around with the Osram software some more and have come up with some combinations that yield a CRI value of 99. One of the combinations is as follows...
CCT: 5600K
5% 420nm
8% 470nm
6% 490nm
7% 525nm
1% 620nm
2% 630nm
6% 660nm
20% 2700K white
20% 4000K white
25% 5700K white
And here is the spectral chart.

This is just an example though. What do you guys think? Best LED combo? What style fixture? How should the channels be divided?
jturner is offline  
post #30 of 45 (permalink) Old 11-28-2016, 01:57 PM
Mxx
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: London
Posts: 643
99 CRI sounds good.

Does anyone think 6000K is too cool of light colour for the average tank in say a living room? The lights in my house are all 2700K, and I'm not sure what my current tank lights rate but believe they're on the warmer side.

I have a set of 5600K BML's for my current tank build I'm slowly in the process of doing, but wonder if they'll be a bit unpleasantly cool for my taste.
Mxx is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome